The Romantic auteur-visionary artist

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
Hanging around music production forums, it always seems like there's a strong prevelance for a rather old-fashioned romantic notion of what a musician (or other artist) Should Be if they're going to produce anything worth shit. The particular characteristics are:
1) being true only to their artistic conscience ("make music for yourself, not for anyone else"), not interested in making money, not interested in connecting with an audience, not interested in engaging with a scene except as an unintended consequence of following The Great Idea and
2) entirely in control of every aspect of their creation - although collaborations are usually allowed, sampling, using synth presets, getting someone else to mix or master your work or whatever tend to be deprecated. "Why use a sample when you can synthesize it yourself and get exactly the sound you want." "Why not learn to mix yourself so you don't have to let someone else make decisions about the sound of your music?"

In practice this tends to be based on quite a lot of wishful thinking and deliberate blind spots (people tend not to reply when you point out that Miles Davis spent a lot of time worrying about how to connect to the audience he was interested in, or that most great renaissance artists had a team of technicians and apprentices to do a lot of the less interesting bits of their paintings), but does anyone know the history of this sort of ideal of The Artist, and what the actual critical positions that it's a rather woolly version of are? Any reading (pref online) worth a look?

Has anyone else been annoyed by the regularity of this way of thinking, and does anyone have thoughts on why it's hung on so stubbornly in such a strong form when all the evidence seems to show that it's balls? Why people are capable of loving the output of Motown and Studio 1 but still claim that commercial motivation is anathema to great music?
 
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john eden

male pale and stale
Great post.

I can't really do the theoretical aspect properly but it is essentially the idea of "genius", I think. Which is, as you say, balls.

The left-communist critique calls it "they myth of the great man" - that "great" people exist as individuals who are "possessed" by genius. A quasi religious concept in which inspiration descends from heaven.

Genii (cf: Genies?) lock themselves away in their castles and develop great art in isolation which the non-creative masses then lap up.

Obv Reynolds counterposes this with "scenius" in which a community of people are influenced by each other, by their surroundings, by the environment, by their shared history of music.
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
Wicked breakdown of why 99.8% of the music in the production section on dsforum isn't worth shit..

john eden said:
The left-communist critique calls it "they myth of the great man" - that "great" people exist as individuals who are "possessed" by genius. A quasi religious concept in which inspiration descends from heaven.

Totally agree, and it's not just fans either, it's a myth that's propogated mostly by those who stand to benefit I think.. trying to think of all the interviews I've read where Art is described as an uncontrollable force flowing through the Artist. It's all about mystique innit.
 
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droid

Guest
But any artist worth his salt can and will describe this experience. be it through writing, drawing or playing/making music. You go into a trance and it just seems to 'flow' instinctively. Next thing you know its 7am and it feels like you've only been working for an hour or so...

I think all great art comes about as a combination of scenius and genius, there is a tension between the two poles and a definite point of intermingling, and I don't reckon they are mutually exclusive states...
 

john eden

male pale and stale
But any artist worth his salt can and will describe this experience. be it through writing, drawing or playing/making music. You go into a trance and it just seems to 'flow' instinctively. Next thing you know its 7am and it feels like you've only been working for an hour or so...

I think all great art comes about as a combination of scenius and genius, there is a tension between the two poles and a definite point of intermingling, and I don't reckon they are mutually exclusive states...

I think seeing it as a combination of the two is a definite step forward but I don't like the mystifying of the process really. Of course it does happen like that, but I think everyone has moments where things just flow.

I'd still argue that the ability to do that is a product of scenius/your influences/picking up tricks from other people tho. It is of course something emerging out of your subconscious but everyone has one of them - it isn't the gods picking mortals out and then zapping them with creativity.
 

jenks

thread death
I like the line attributed to Picasso

'Inspiration exists but it has to find you working'

Seems to me to sum up the tension between 'Genius' and the hard work and dedication that goes into creating artworks of whatever description.

I think the idea of the great artist must have been something promoted firstly by the Renaissance but really seriously enshrined by the Romantic movement - Beethoven, Casper Friedrich, Goethe, Wordsworth etc - all laying claim to an idea about Vision and the movement away from patronage etc. Not serving anyone else other than themselves, the we amke it for ouselves and if anyone else likes it... line pedalled by 101 indie bands

I am not against those persuing The Great Idea - obviously I want my artists to be original and fundamentally produce interesting and challenging works, no matter whether they are using machines, collaborating or whatever.

I, though, am against an over-riding snootiness that can occur when being successful is considered to be bad.

I seem to remember a long running debate on issues of authenticity a while back on here and I should imagine that some of those arguments will chime with this thread
 
Isn't this the promethean myth? The idea, that man is able to give birth to something just from his own thoughts, instead of being a part of the circle of life.
 
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droid

Guest
I think seeing it as a combination of the two is a definite step forward but I don't like the mystifying of the process really. Of course it does happen like that, but I think everyone has moments where things just flow.

I'd still argue that the ability to do that is a product of scenius/your influences/picking up tricks from other people tho. It is of course something emerging out of your subconscious but everyone has one of them - it isn't the gods picking mortals out and then zapping them with creativity.

Yeah sure. Everyone involved in a creative pursuit has the ability to 'flow', or tap into the universal font of inspiration. I think its a separate point really though. Just cos some artists may have claimed exclusivity over this process doesn't mean it should be lumped in with the whole 'artist as visionary' genius thing.

For me inspiration is when you're working on something and you stop having to make decisions about the work. They seem to happen automatically, which is why , I think it has been attributed to some outside 'mystical' force... cos thats kinda how it feels.
 

swears

preppy-kei
Hasn't the idea of the romantic genius in art has been replaced by the more cool, detached, ironic, Duchampian "scholar"? Y'know, your Koonses and Halleys?

Popular music hasn't really caught up yet, although a few people like Kid606 sort of flirt with the idea.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
Wicked breakdown of why 99.8% of the music in the production section on dsforum isn't worth shit..
Yeah, it's kind of weird to see people into dubstep saying "fuck the DJs, don't worry about the dancefloor, make music for yourself." I mean, do they have any clue as to where any of this music comes from?

I think all great art comes about as a combination of scenius and genius, there is a tension between the two poles and a definite point of intermingling, and I don't reckon they are mutually exclusive states...
I thought one way of seeing scenius was a kind of holistic view of a series of small moments of genius from a whole lot of different people? One thing that pisses me off about a lot of Reynolds-inspired writing is the tendancy to downplay the importance of individual characters and their differences and their ideas and view everyone as mindless cogs in a scenius machine. Whereas really good writers can see people as both...

I think the idea of the great artist must have been something promoted firstly by the Renaissance but really seriously enshrined by the Romantic movement - Beethoven, Casper Friedrich, Goethe, Wordsworth etc - all laying claim to an idea about Vision and the movement away from patronage etc.
Yeah, I'd be interested if anyone could throw further light on the development and subsequent criticism of this idea. I kind of feel there should be a wiki page but I'm not sure what to look for.

Hasn't the idea of the romantic genius in art has been replaced by the more cool, detached, ironic, Duchampian "scholar"? Y'know, your Koonses and Halleys?

Popular music hasn't really caught up yet, although a few people like Kid606 sort of flirt with the idea.
I dunno, it's not so much about them being detached and ironic as about them being willing to compromise and see themselves as in some way functional craftsmen rather than 'pure' artists. Critically a lot of people seem happy to accept that functionalist commercial music from Motown or Studio 1 or whatever as being as capable of being great music as self-consciously 'pure' music like, I dunno, Led Zep or Autechre (and also capable of seeing the amount of commercial compromise that goes on behind the scenes with a lot of allegedly 'uncommercial' music), although I'm not sure how the musicians themselves see it. But a lot of musicians still stick to the idea that as soon as you let considerations of commerce and popularity influence your music making, you're betraying your creative conscience...
 

polystyle

Well-known member
Some find a way to balance both pop and craftsmen ideas, as in the Times article.
The article don't touch onto this idea about 'Romantic' , art inspirations from grr ' heaven' etc.
Those music production forums don't sound too good . ;)
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I like the line attributed to Picasso

'Inspiration exists but it has to find you working'

Sounds like a virtually identical sentiment to the one expressed by Edison (the great lightbulb-stealing twat) talking about scientific discovery and technological innovation: "Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration".
 

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
Walter Benjamin might be a good place to start with theories about the auteur, I seem to remember Adorno being quite good on that n all.

http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/ge/benjamin.htm

I haven't checked to see how relevant it is, operating from memory, so apologies if you end up reading a bunch of irrelevant guff.

swears is right about artistic theory within fine art being different, indeed fine art is solely about financial and commercial consideration within a marketplace and rarely about anything else now, the solipsistic nature of artists leading to that blind alley.

as soon as you let considerations of commerce and popularity influence your music making, you're betraying your creative conscience...

It depends on the ontological position your creative conscience took in the first place, no? Which I think is what you're talking about, less genius and more how the idea of self-containment became more 'pure' than that of commerce. I think it changed in the 80s with music, SAW and Paul Morley and Live Aid, and hiphop to an extent, put 'paid' to the idea that there could ever be commerce with intent again in any meaningful context.
 

CHAOTROPIC

on account
The documentary 'Dig!' is brilliant to watch with all this in mind. Anton Newcombe playing his romantic doomed trajectory to the hilt versus Coutney Taylor-Taylor, pragmatic cynic travelling to his musical office in rock-star drag.

(Both twats.)
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Sounds like a virtually identical sentiment to the one expressed by Edison (the great lightbulb-stealing twat) talking about scientific discovery and technological innovation: "Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration".

Yes, but that one percent is crucial - perspiration is a necessary but not sufficient condition for genius viz. Robbie Savage / Lionel Messi.

One could say that 'inspiration' = 'genius,' which without necessary work - 'perspiration' - cannot make itself known.
 

ripley

Well-known member
Has anyone else been annoyed by the regularity of this way of thinking, and does anyone have thoughts on why it's hung on so stubbornly in such a strong form when all the evidence seems to show that it's balls? Why people are capable of loving the output of Motown and Studio 1 but still claim that commercial motivation is anathema to great music?

great post..

this last question has been tackled in-depth in the scholarship around copyright law, in case you are interested in a perhaps more academic take on it. Because of course copyright law depends on identifying an author, and the criteria for identifying one is mostly this romantic vision (although a lockean labor-theory-of-value creeps in too)

however, this scholarship has not focused so much on the *reception* of these concepts, or the way they resonate so powerfully with many people, as they have on the creation or the reinforcement of them. I think a lot of work has yet to be done on why it is people find the attractive. at the very least I would expect that to differ across different cultures (i.e. ones that don't have a Romantic period might feel differently), but it hasn't really been explored much.

But anyway, in case you're interested, With respect to writing (mostly), a great collection of essays is Peter Jazsi and Martha Woodmansee's _The Construction of Authorship: textual construction in law and literature_ . Especially the essay on Helen Keller (the blind-deaf-mute woman who reached some fame in the USA) who was sued for plagiarism. There is actually an okay piece (if I remember right) on Djs and sampling in there by David Sanjek.

With respect to music, Ethnomusicologist Lydia Goehr has a pretty fun book called _The Imaginary Museum of Musical Works_ in which she argues against a naturalized concept of a "work" i.e. a finished piece with set boundaries, pointing out that this too is a Romantic concept.

Legal scholar Anne Barron wrote an interesting rebuttal to this in an article where she argues that the rise of copyright law actually helped create this romantic concept of the work and the author. that's in a very cool issue of _Social & Legal Studies_ 'Introduction: harmony or dissonance? Copyright concepts and musical practice.' Social and legal studies 15, no. 1 (2006), pp. 25-51

and in the cultural studies world quite a few scholars have examined this with respect to musical practices that may or may not be influenced by Romanticism- for example some of the more afrocentric scholarship on "black music" sometims motivated by perhaps equally essentialist visions of what "african practices" are and how they don't go well with this vision of authorship. Otehrs just focusing on the practices themselves, whether african or just not-fitting-in-w/-trad-notions-of-authorshop. Scholarship on Jazz and hip-hop makes some of these points rather well. Jason Toynbee's work on Jamaica (as well as a cool article by Wayne Marshall and Peter Manuel - "the riddim method"l) also go there to some extent

sorry to geek out, but this stuff is part of my dissertation research so i have scads of articles about this kind of thing, if anyone lacks access to academic networks and wants a copy of an article I'd be happy to share..
 
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luka

Well-known member
well the men writing songs for motown were geniuses. geniuses exist. stop pretending you could do what they do. you can't. they're geniuses. you're not.

like the savage/messi comparision... savage can't be messi. you can't be a musician/poet/aritst for the ages.

i know its hard to hear, in this democratic crabs in a pot world but its true. genius is real.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
well the men writing songs for motown were geniuses. geniuses exist. stop pretending you could do what they do. you can't. they're geniuses. you're not.

like the savage/messi comparision... savage can't be messi. you can't be a musician/poet/aritst for the ages.

i know its hard to hear, in this democratic crabs in a pot world but its true. genius is real.

but where do you think it comes from?
 
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