Working classes 'have lower IQs'

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
Eh? Surely m_b is talking only about kids improving their *own* career prospects? Not that schoolkids have careers as such, but improving their prospects relative to what they would be if they simply dossed about in school and came out with crap/no qualifications...
But the analysis that we're talking about looked at the IQ of kids relative to their social class. m_b's argument is that part of the reason that people working in menial jobs have, on average, lower IQs is because if they had higher IQs they'd be more likely to have become brain surgeons or bank managers. Which is fair enough, but not really relevant to questions of education - a kid's social class is (afaik) defined by what their parents do, not what they do, so that argument doesn't really apply. Given a correlation, we have to look at their social background as a cause not an effect.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Given a correlation, we have to look at their social background as a cause not an effect.

Oh, absolutely. Yes, as a rule you don't get middle-class kids from working-class backgrounds, though in the postwar generations you had working-class kids growing into middle-class adults.

As far as I can see people often conflate a family's income level or size of house with social class, whereas it's actually far more complex than that, I think.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
But the analysis that we're talking about looked at the IQ of kids relative to their social class. m_b's argument is that part of the reason that people working in menial jobs have, on average, lower IQs is because if they had higher IQs they'd be more likely to have become brain surgeons or bank managers. Which is fair enough, but not really relevant to questions of education - a kid's social class is (afaik) defined by what their parents do, not what they do, so that argument doesn't really apply. Given a correlation, we have to look at their social background as a cause not an effect.

Sure, but I'm assuming that IQ is at least 50% hereditary.
 

slim jenkins

El Hombre Invisible
How would society function if 'everybody' got 'smart'? :slanted:

Get the immigrants to do all the menial jobs?

A central dilemma in utopian idealism re ejucation that has never been solved...never needed to be...never will...

...because by the time the educational standards in this country are that good we'll have robots doing the drone work and people will be free to pursue science, art whatever...good eh?

Yours A. Prole who hated school.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
And then the robots get smart and start demanding equal rights... ;)

Nah, I'm all for robots.

I don't know who's idea it was originally but in the Schroedinger's Cat Trilogoy Robert Anton Wilson talks about a scheme where people can invent themselves out of jobs - i.e. you design a machine that can do your job and you then receive the wage you would have earned for doing it. Entrepreneurs can get rich by inventing themselves out of multiple jobs.
 

slim jenkins

El Hombre Invisible
:D Can we possibly imagine a future where a road sweeper invents a robot that can do his job? Will it be possible? And will he be smart enough to copyright the design then sell it to a manufacturing company...which employs robots to do all the shop floor work, of course...building versions of themselves to carry out 'menial' work to maintain the basic structure of society...mmm
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Some of the posts on this thread have annoyed me because of the assumption that intelligence 'gets you places', or even that being smart should make you want to rise through society's ranks. Honestly in my experience most of the smartest people I know or have met are not in positions of power or authority. In fact many would probably be described as fuckups or losers of one kind or another. That's where being really (too) smart often gets you. Conversely a good deal of the people I have encountered in 'professional' occupations can be said to be characterised by a consummate mediocrity of intelligence coupled with the kind of (class) confidence that does actually help if you want to climb ladders in established hierarchical institutions. Not saying these are absolute rules that can't be transcended or bypassed but that's the way it looks to me.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
:D Can we possibly imagine a future where a road sweeper invents a robot that can do his job? Will it be possible? And will he be smart enough to copyright the design then sell it to a manufacturing company...which employs robots to do all the shop floor work, of course...building versions of themselves to carry out 'menial' work to maintain the basic structure of society...mmm
Nano machines bruv, nano machines. Won't have to worry about a thing - just sling some waste into the Produkator, say a few words and out comes whatever you like. Until we all turn to grey goo that is.
 

slim jenkins

El Hombre Invisible
I've long endured the work environment where to have read a book (other than Janet & John) marked me as an outsider...because what use is f*cking Camus or the rest of the Shakespeare Squad? Really?

As an uneducated minnow cut adrift from my roots I see it all from a strange perspective...those who somehow glorify 'ignorance' or lack of ambition annoy me to some degree...as do the ones who see ambition and their idea of 'intellect' as the only worthwhile marker by which to judge others.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
because what use is f*cking Camus or the rest of the Shakespeare Squad? Really?
semioticshu2.gif
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Some of the posts on this thread have annoyed me because of the assumption that intelligence 'gets you places', or even that being smart should make you want to rise through society's ranks. Honestly in my experience most of the smartest people I know or have met are not in positions of power or authority. In fact many would probably be described as fuckups or losers of one kind or another. That's where being really (too) smart often gets you. Conversely a good deal of the people I have encountered in 'professional' occupations can be said to be characterised by a consummate mediocrity of intelligence coupled with the kind of (class) confidence that does actually help if you want to climb ladders in established hierarchical institutions. Not saying these are absolute rules that can't be transcended or bypassed but that's the way it looks to me.

Hmm, I dunno, there's certainly more than one sort of intelligence, that's for sure. But is some over-educated, hyper-intellectualised 'loser' who spends all his Jobseeker's on philosophy periodicals really in the same boat as your average Trisha-watching professional unemployed? Maybe he is, financially speaking, but they're certainly unemployed for very different reasons.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Didn't say they they weren't. I just take issue somewhat with the assumption that because someone is doing 'menial' work that they are either not so intelligent or they should be wanting to 'better themselves'. Also that if someone is in a more 'respected' position then they must have a good brain. That's just how I read a few things here.

Nothing wrong with ambition and aspiration though.
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
:D Can we possibly imagine a future where a road sweeper invents a robot that can do his job? Will it be possible? And will he be smart enough to copyright the design then sell it to a manufacturing company...which employs robots to do all the shop floor work, of course...building versions of themselves to carry out 'menial' work to maintain the basic structure of society...mmm

surely, a road sweeper is in an extremely good position to understand the difficulties of the job and therefore think about solutions to them.

whether or not they make any money out of it has nothing to do with intelligence, rather exploitation.
 

slim jenkins

El Hombre Invisible
Yes, in an advisory capacity they may be crucial. They could make money by engaging in a fruitful partnership with engineers and scientists without exploiting anyone. Profit doesn't inherently involve exploitation...greed does.
 
Top