Capitalism, Marxism and Related Matters

turtles

in the sea
the historical record of millions of people murdered by Marxists is a really good reason to be sceptical that anything useful will come from this corner.
That statement reads equally as true with "Capitalist" swapped for "Marxist" y'know.

Also, y'know, if positions were swapped and we lived in a communist world economy, with some failed capitalists states smattered around, I'm pretty sure people who favored capitalism would have a really hard time providing a truly concrete counterexample. I think it would be near-impossible to give an accurate and credible description of how our current real-world global capitalist society works without it actually having existed beforehand. For example if someone came along and said something like "I know! We'll have exchange rates for all the worlds currencies be determined on an open market in a process hardly distinguishable from a random walk!" no one would take you seriously.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
That statement reads equally as true with "Capitalist" swapped for "Marxist" y'know.

But people don't generally go around promoting capitalism as this utopian system that's going to save the world, do they? Or if some do, as a rule they're fewer in number and much less vocal than people who say the same thing about communism/Marxism.
 

comelately

Wild Horses
Yes, but if we lived in a "communist world economy, with some failed capitalists states smattered around" scenario, then I suspect that it would be institutions talking about the benefits of economic planning and "ordinary people" arguing against the status quo?

Plus I think it does kinda depend which bit of the internet you're on. That said internet pro-capitalists will often believe in some religion or other belief system which means they aren't looking directly at economics to deliver "a utopia which is going to save the world". But nonetheless I think there's plenty of self-perpetuating highly pro-capitalist nodes out there. Who will often also have some other crazy plans that will see some major additions to the bodycount. And the truth is that the ones who don't (eg US fiscal conservatives, some social libertarians) are pretty much chasing the same utopian dream that Marxists are as far as I can see. Pardon me if I'm missing the point though.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Yes, but if we lived in a "communist world economy, with some failed capitalists states smattered around" scenario, then I suspect that it would be institutions talking about the benefits of economic planning and "ordinary people" arguing against the status quo?

Yes, maybe - the grass is always greener (or redder!) and all that.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
But people don't generally go around promoting capitalism as this utopian system that's going to save the world, do they? Or if some do, as a rule they're fewer in number and much less vocal than people who say the same thing about communism/Marxism.

There is no point in "promoting" the prevailing order. It's like doing an advertising campaign for gravity.
 

3 Body No Problem

Well-known member
That statement reads equally as true with "Capitalist" swapped for "Marxist" y'know.

And yet, I bet that what you would offer in support of this claim (slavery, imperialism) was practised before capitalism, was practised by the soviet union, and has not been practised by the advanced capitalist states for a long time. So it is misleading to say that these are problems of "Capitalism".

Moreover, I doubt that you find sophisticated non-Marxists avocating for unspecified "capitalism". That crude, undifferentiated picture is the realm of propaganda, not of serious analysis. Instead interesting non-Marxists argue for variants of democratic welfare states with independent press, judiciary, and so on, and a mixed mode economy (e.g. state assisted/legislated health care, state mandated pensions, some degree of social security, social housing, primary and secondary education etc for the basics, and relatively free markets for consumer goods). Such states are the most peaceful and most prosperous the world has ever seen.
 
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droid

Guest
And yet, I bet that what you would offer in support of this claim (slavery, imperialism) was practised before capitalism, was practised by the soviet union, and has not been practised by the advanced capitalist states for a long time. So it is misleading to say that these are problems of "Capitalism".

Offhand:

Capitalist economic practices became institutionalized in the United Kingdom between the 16th and 19th centuries, although some features of capitalist organization existed in the ancient world, and early forms of merchant capitalism flourished during the Middle Ages.[7][8] Capitalism has been dominant in the Western world since the end of feudalism.[7] From Britain it gradually spread throughout Europe, across political and cultural frontiers. In the 19th and 20th centuries, capitalism provided the main, but not exclusive, means of industrialization throughout much of the world.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

Imperialism has 'has not been practised by the advanced capitalist states for a long time'?

When was the last time it was practised in your opinion?

Moreover, I doubt that you find sophisticated non-Marxists avocating for unspecified "capitalism". That crude, undifferentiated picture is the realm of propaganda, not of serious analysis. Instead interesting non-Marxists argue for variants of democratic welfare states with independent press, judiciary, and so on, and a mixed mode economy (e.g. state assisted/legislated health care, state mandated pensions, some degree of social security, social housing, primary and secondary education etc for the basics, and relatively free markets for consumer goods). Such states are the most peaceful and most prosperous the world has ever seen.

SOME of these states are the most peaceful and most prosperous the world has ever seen.

Id say that the record of many leading capitalist states would suggest otherwise. Unless you're talking simply about peace within the state.

The history of US and UK aggression against, and inteference with other nations in the 20th century alone has been well documented and makes a mockery of that claim.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
SOME of these states are the most peaceful and most prosperous the world has ever seen.

Id say that the record of many leading capitalist states would suggest otherwise. Unless you're talking simply about peace within the state.

The history of US and UK aggression against, and inteference with other nations in the 20th century alone has been well documented and makes a mockery of that claim.
On the other hand, it is rather easier to point to examples of peaceful and prosperous capitalist democratic states than of peaceful and prosperous communist ones... this doesn't completely discredit communism, but imo it does leave the ball in the revolutionary marxists' court when it comes to explaining why it's going to work this time.
 
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droid

Guest
On the other hand, it is rather easier to point to examples of peaceful and prosperous capitalist democratic states than of peaceful and prosperous communist ones... this doesn't completely discredit communism, but imo it does leave the ball in the revolutionary marxists' court when it comes to explaining why it's going to work this time.

Yeah, thats fine. Im not defending state marxism or communism, but one thing you have to take into account in any analysis of the role of socialism in governance and its effects on populations is the fact that almost every emerging state that has attempted to deviate signifcantly from capitalist systems has been vociferously attacked and intimidated by the dominant world powers.

There are a million shades of grey between Maoist and Stalinist systems and capitalism as it is practised today, yet all of these alternative potentials have been mercilessly crushed.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
SOME of these states are the most peaceful and most prosperous the world has ever seen.

Id say that the record of many leading capitalist states would suggest otherwise. Unless you're talking simply about peace within the state.

The history of US and UK aggression against, and inteference with other nations in the 20th century alone has been well documented and makes a mockery of that claim.

But (to make a rather ridiculously simplified distinction between 'capitalist' countries on one hand and 'communist' countries on the other), isn't it the case that communist states in the last century committed vast atrocities against their own people, to the tune of tens of millions of deaths, as well as prosecuting wars of aggression against other countries and invading and occupying them, i.e. prosecuting an imperialist agenda? I guess Slothrop has already made this point, but playing the game of 'who has killed and oppressed the most people?' isn't a wise strategy for anyone promoting revolutionary Marxism these days. (Edit: though, to be fair, you make it clear you're not defending Marxism as such, and I'm not saying you are: I'm just pointing out that saying "Capitalist countries do bad things sometimes" isn't much of an argument in favour of Marxism/communism.)

There are a million shades of grey between Maoist and Stalinist systems and capitalism as it is practised today, yet all of these alternative potentials have been mercilessly crushed.

But "capitalism as it is practised today", in many countries, includes some elements of socialism, doesn't it? Look at Britain's welfare state, NHS, state schools and so on - OK, it's not perfect, but it provides for people and it means we're still a long way from being as un-communist as it's possible to get. A much more limited welfare system even exists in the US (surely the capitalist country par excellence?).
 
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droid

Guest
But (to make a rather ridiculously simplified distinction between 'capitalist' countries on one hand and 'communist' countries on the other), isn't it the case that communist states in the last century committed vast atrocities against their own people, to the tune of tens of millions of deaths, as well as prosecuting wars of aggression against other countries and invading and occupying them, i.e. prosecuting an imperialist agenda? I guess Slothrop has already made this point, but playing the game of 'who has killed and oppressed the most people?' isn't a wise strategy for anyone promoting revolutionary Marxism these days. (Edit: though, to be fair, you make it clear you're not defending Marxism as such, and I'm not saying you are: I'm just pointing out that saying "Capitalist countries do bad things sometimes" isn't much of an argument in favour of Marxism/communism.)

Other points aside, I think its a reasonable response to the suggestion that captialist countries are 'the most peaceful'.

But "capitalism as it is practised today", in many countries, includes some elements of socialism, doesn't it? Look at Britain's welfare state, NHS, state schools and so on - OK, it's not perfect, but it provides for people and it means we're still a long way from being as un-communist as it's possible to get. A much more limited welfare system even exists in the US (surely the capitalist country par excellence?).

Thats all up for debate really, but one thing that is clear, especially in the US, is that 'socialist' elements - unions, welfare etc... have beeen systematically rolled back. In fact the US under Reagan and Britain under Tatcher (and now labour) are pioneers in the elimination of social safety nets for their populations. And of course, the systems these countries prescribe, permit and enforce on weaker countries are about as far from socialism as you can get.
 
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droid

Guest
But (to make a rather ridiculously simplified distinction between 'capitalist' countries on one hand and 'communist' countries on the other), isn't it the case that communist states in the last century committed vast atrocities against their own people, to the tune of tens of millions of deaths, as well as prosecuting wars of aggression against other countries and invading and occupying them, i.e. prosecuting an imperialist agenda?

A further correction to make is that, despite the repulsive policies of State communists/marxists towards their own populations, the record of external aggression of China and Russia (I assume you were referring to them) pales in comparison to the Western aggression and interference in the third world.

The record of the junior partner alone is illustrative:

1948 Britain declares ‘emergency’ in Malaya and begins 12-year war to defeat rebels, who are mainly marginalised Chinese. Britain secretly describes war as ‘in defence of [the] rubber industry’ and engages in widespread bombing, draconian police measures and ‘resettlement’ of hundreds of thousands of people in fortified ‘new villages’.

1951 June: Attlee government begins covert plan to overthrow Iranian prime minister Musaddiq following the latter’s nationalisation of oil operations.

1952 October: Britain declares state of emergency in colony of Kenya. British forces conduct human rights atrocities, establish Nazi-style concentration camps and ‘resettle’ hundreds of thousands of people in ‘protected villages’. Around 150,000 Africans die.

1953 August: Musaddiq government in Iran overthrown in MI6/CIA-organised coup. Shah installed in power as per London’s and Washington’s plans.

1953 October: Britain conducts military intervention in British Guiana to overthrow democratically elected government.

1954 July: US overthrows Guatemalan government of Jacobo Arbenz and US-backed junta seizes power. Britain aids US position at UN.

1956 October: Britain invades Egypt to remove nationalist president Nasser, eventually being forced to withdraw due to US and financial pressure. MI6 plans and carries out several assassination attempts against Nasser.

1957 July: Britain begins military intervention in Oman in support of extremely repressive regime against rebellion by Omani Liberation Army. SAS fights covert war and RAF conducts wide-spread bombing of villages and strongholds, defeating rebels by 1959.

1958 July: Britain conducts military intervention in Jordan, ostensibly to protect regime from alleged Egyptian-backed coup. Declassified documents suggest, however, that British planners fabricated the coup scenario to justify intervention.

1961 Death of UN Secretary-General Dag Hammarskjöld in mysterious plane crash while trying to secure peace in Congo. Recent evidence has emerged of possible MI5 involvement.

1961 US begins major intervention in Vietnam. As US atrocities mount in the war that follows, Britain secretly provides US with military intelligence, arms and covert SAS deployments, along with diplomatic support.

1961 July: Britain conducts military intervention in Kuwait, ostensibly to defend the country from imminent Iraqi invasion. Declassified documents suggest, however, that British planners fabricated the threat to justify intervention.

1962 MI6 and SAS begin covert operation in North Yemen that eventually involves providing arms, funding and logistical support to royalist rebels in dirty war against pro-Egyptian republican forces. Around 200,000 die in the war.

1964 Britain begins second war in support of Oman regime, against the Popular Front for the Liberation of the Occupied Arabian Gulf, fought mainly covertly by the SAS. The ‘Dhofar Rebellion’ is defeated by 1975.

1965 October: Bloodbath in Indonesia begins as army moves against supporters of Indonesian Communist Party, reaching around a million deaths. Declassified documents show Britain aids the Indonesian army in conducting the slaughter through covert operations and secret messages of support.

1968 Britain begins illegal and secret removal of 1,500 population of Chagos islands, including Diego Garcia, following agreement to lease islands to US. Whitehall conspiracy begins, contending there are no indigenous inhabitants.

1970 July: British coup in Oman overthrows Sultan and installs his son. Sultan Qaboos remains in power today.

1975 December: Indonesia invades East Timor, leading to 200,000 deaths. In secret cable, British ambassador in Jakarta says Indonesia ‘should absorb the territory as soon and as unobtrusively as possible’ and that Britain ‘should avoid taking sides against the Indonesian government’.

1980 MI6 begins largest postwar covert operation in Afghanistan to train mojahidin groups fighting the Soviet occupation.

1981 US begins covert intervention against Nicaragua, training contra rebels in sabotage and terrorist operations. Britain provides strong diplomatic support to US and nod and wink to ‘security’ company, KMS, to train and recruit contra guerillas and conduct gun-running operations.

1983 October: US invades Grenada. British government privately furious at US failure to consult in invasion of Commonwealth country, but publicly backs intervention.

1985 First contract with Saudi Arabia signed in massive Al Yamamah arms deal. With second deal in 1988, overall worth is around £50 billion.

1986 Spring: MI6 begins supplying Afghan mojahidin groups with ‘Blowpipe’ shoulder-launched missiles, some of which are used to shoot down passenger airliners.

1986 April: US conducts air raids on Libya. Britain allows US use of British air bases and provides strong public support.

1989 December: US invades Panama. Britain is only major state to unstintingly support US.

1991 January: US, Britain and coalition begin massive bombing campaign against Iraq to force withdrawal from Kuwait following its invasion the previous August.

1991 April: Britain and US establish ‘no fly zones’ in northern and southern Iraq. They begin covert, permanent war of bombing in the zones.

1991 November: Indonesian forces massacre hundreds of peaceful demonstrators in Dili, East Timor. Britain continues arms exports and business as usual.

1992 MI6 draws up plans to assassinate Yugoslav president Milosevic, according to an MI6 official. These plans are apparently not carried out.

1993 June: US conducts cruise missile attacks against Iraq. Britain provides political support.

1994 April: Rwanda genocide begins, quickly killing a million people. Britain effectively aids the slaughter by helping to reduce UN force that could have prevented the killings, in helping to delay other plans for intervention and in resisting use of the term ‘genocide’ which would have obligated the international community to act.

1996 MoD quietly sends first of several training teams to assist Saudi Arabia in ‘internal security’ as part of wider support to Saudi Arabian National Guard, the force that protects the ruling family.

1996 February: Assassination and coup attempt against Libya’s Colonel Qadafi with, according to former MI5 officer David Shayler, MI6 funds and backing.

1996 April: British-supplied Scorpion light tanks used in Indonesia to repress demonstrators. It is the first of eight known occasions in 1996-2000 that British armoured cars are used for internal repression. Blair government continues arms to Indonesia.

1996 September: US conducts cruise missile attacks against Iraq. Britain provides political support.

1998 August: US launches cruise missile attacks against Al Qaida training camps in Afghanistan and a pharmaceutical factory in Sudan. Britain provides strong political support.

1998 December: US and Britain begin four-day heavy bombing campaign against Iraq, followed by weeks-long secret escalation of bombing in ‘no fly zones’.

1999 March: Britain and NATO begin bombing campaign against Milosevic’s Yugoslavia over Kosovo. The humanitarian catastrophe that Western leaders claim they are preventing is in reality precipitated by NATO bombing.

1999 April: Former members of Kenyan Mau Mau movement announce they are suing British government for human rights atrocities committed in 1950s.

1999 August/September: Around 5,000 are killed in East Timor and 500,000 forced to flee from Indonesian-backed terror around the vote for independence. Britain continues arms sales to Jakarta and finally agrees only to delay not stop them, while inviting Indonesia to an arms fair in Britain. Blair government tries to take credit for stopping Indonesian violence by helping to establish UN peace enforcement mission.

Cont...
 
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droid

Guest
2000 January: Chinese defence minister, General Chi Haotian, who commanded the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre, visits Britain to explore ‘military cooperation’, showing London’s apparent defiance of EU arms embargo on China.

2000 February: As Russian forces ferociously bomb the Chechnyan capital, Grozny, reducing the city to rubble, Foreign Secretary Robin Cook says he ‘understood’ Russia’s problems in Chechnya.

2000 July: British national Ian Henderson resigns as adviser to Bahraini government after career as head of repressive internal security service.

2000 November: High Court rules against government that Chagos islanders be allowed to return to some of their homeland islands, but not Diego Garcia.

2001 February: US/British airstrikes against Iraq in response to alleged threats to aircraft in ‘no fly zones’.

2001 August: US and Britain secretly step up bombing campaign in ‘no fly zones’ in Iraq.

2001 October: US and Britain begin massive bombing campaign against Al Qaida and Taliban regime in Afghanistan following terrorist attacks of September 11th. Civilian deaths in the war outnumber those killed on September 11th.

2001 November: At the World Trade Organisation summit in Qatar, Britain with EU allies tries to force ‘new issues’ on to the WTO’s negotiating agenda in face of opposition from developing countries. The latter remain united and the decision is delayed for two years.

2002 Foreign Office website continues to lie that there are ‘no indigenous inhabitants’ of the Chagos islands, while Foreign Office continues in effect to block islanders’ return.

2002 August: With full-scale war against Iraq appearing imminent, US and Britain secretly step up bombing campaign in ‘no fly zones’.

2002 October: In midst of continuing Russian atrocities in Chechnya, Tony Blair says ‘it is important to understand the Russian perspective’.

2003 March: After months of build-up, US and Britain launch war against Iraq, discarding the UN weapons inspection process and bypassing the UN Security Council.

Taken from this excellent book: http://www.human-nature.com/reason/01/curtis.html[/QUOTE]

(And thats without mention of human rights abuses and security forces collusion with Loyalist terror in Northern Ireland.)

Now, Im not a marxist or a communist. I abhor state communism and am not inclined to excuse the crimes of so-called 'communist' governments, but any argument that rests on the assumption that capitalist countries are 'most peaceful', or that communist states have been more aggressive than capitalist ones is contradicted by the historical record.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Thats all up for debate really, but one thing that is clear, especially in the US, is that 'socialist' elements - unions, welfare etc... have beeen systematically rolled back. In fact the US under Reagan and Britain under Tatcher (and now labour) are pioneers in the elimination of social safety nets for their populations.

Agreed, as far as that goes - the problem is, for many people in Britain unemployment benefit has long ago ceased to be a mere 'safety net' and has become a way of life, not uncommonly for two or three generations of the same family. There's nothing socialist about having large numbers of people permanently on the dole.
And as far as other aspects of the welfare state go, huge amounts of money have been pumped into education and health under Labour (although I'm certainly not alone in being worried about the increasing role being played by private firms in these areas).
 
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