Hipsters: Scourge or Irrelevence

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Ah, well then there's the difference between nerds and geeks, which I've never actually understood myself. Is there a meaningful difference between the terms? How do you differentiate between people who attend Star Trek conventions and people who can quote entire Kevin Smith movies?
 

echevarian

babylon sister
I think the difference between K-Punk and our increasingly stereotypical young 20 something from a trendy area in London/New York/Paris/Berlin/LA is that we trade heavily in the cultural signs and signifiers of cool, while he analyzes from a distance. Its the process of constantly keeping the fashionable at arms reach, cherry picking only the most hyper fashionable that gives a hipster power.

It also tends to make the majority of us look and act ridiculously a large percentage of the time.
 

CHAOTROPIC

on account
Is it just me, or is there a certain parallel between the hipster and the nerd? Both groups stereotypically have an anally-retentive attention to detail, usually with regards to things other people couldn't give a toss about and have often not even heard of; a desire to stay ahead of the game in terms of current developments, be it in a musical micro-scene or internet culture and technology (coupled, paradoxically, with an obsession with all things retro) and, as people have mentioned, the fact that people who would be described by others as a hipster/nerd usually do not identify themselves as such. In fact, anyone who calls themselves a nerd is probably a hipster trying to appropriate nerd culture or 'geek chic' (the dorky rectangular glasses, woolen cardigan, tweed jacket...), which seems to be a whole look by itself these days.

I think they're the opposite, really. A nerd (if I'm right in conflating 'nerd' & 'geek') doesn't give a shit about what people think about him, hiding in personal obsession at the expense of status games. It's self-conscious outsiderism. 'Hipsters', according to every definition above, are interested in subcultures principally as a status game. It's self-conscious insiderism. Their very LACK of obsession, of real personal engagement, is their main characteristic & seems to be the principal argument the self-proclaimed 'real' give against their 'right' to engage with the subcultures they toy with.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member

swears

preppy-kei
The people in the adbusters piece, didn't they exist ten years ago, only they wore 70s retro clothing instead of 80s and listened to Marky Mark rather than Girl Talk?

And if you wanna take it back even further what about the retro-soul "style culture" that gripped London's clubland pre-acid house? (As described in Energy Flash, I dunno much about it)
 
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droid

Guest
Is it just me, or is there a certain parallel between the hipster and the nerd? Both groups stereotypically have an anally-retentive attention to detail, usually with regards to things other people couldn't give a toss about and have often not even heard of; a desire to stay ahead of the game in terms of current developments, be it in a musical micro-scene or internet culture and technology (coupled, paradoxically, with an obsession with all things retro) and, as people have mentioned, the fact that people who would be described by others as a hipster/nerd usually do not identify themselves as such. In fact, anyone who calls themselves a nerd is probably a hipster trying to appropriate nerd culture or 'geek chic' (the dorky rectangular glasses, woolen cardigan, tweed jacket...), which seems to be a whole look by itself these days.

Nah. Hipsters are poseurs who self consciously flit from one cultural meme to another, consuming on a superficial level in a desperate attempt to appear ahead of the game.

Nerds are obsessives who tend to be involved with their fields of interest at some creative level and steadfastly stick to their passions, whatever they may be, regardless of fashion - bless em.

Though there is crossover. With nerds trying to be hip, and hipsters posing as nerds, but there is a fundamental difference - Hipsters go out and party at the weekend, Nerds sit in front of a computer/sampler/whatever.

As for the whole geek/nerd thing. The difference is fully explained in my fanzine. :)
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I think they're the opposite, really. A nerd (if I'm right in conflating 'nerd' & 'geek') doesn't give a shit about what people think about him, hiding in personal obsession at the expense of status games. It's self-conscious outsiderism. 'Hipsters', according to every definition above, are interested in subcultures principally as a status game. It's self-conscious insiderism. Their very LACK of obsession, of real personal engagement, is their main characteristic & seems to be the principal argument the self-proclaimed 'real' give against their 'right' to engage with the subcultures they toy with.

Yes, opposite in some ways, but in other ways closer than you might think. Everyone knows nerds are unfashionable, but wouldn't a truly dedicated hipster (if there is any such thing?*) take pleasure from knowing that Mr. and Mrs. Normal look at him and think "What the fuck?"? Nerds might be 'outsiders', but there is often a fierce sense of belonging, even cliquishness, within their own social groups.

*this might be worth expanding on: I suppose I'm talking about people who put a hell of a lot of effort into looking and acting like they don't give a shit about anything. And when this gets too obvious, we say someone looks like they're "trying a bit too hard", which I imagine would be a devastating put-down to any true hipster.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
Well just like any subcultural niche, particularly one that is as marketed to as heavily as mine (or ours) I think hipsters definitely can be split into further subgroups.

Arguably techno hipsters are a different breed than indie rock hipsters, but people like Matthew Dear would be partially in both camps.

I'm a kind of scuzzy looking man in my mid-twenties, with facial hair and pseudo military looking clothes so I think I qualify for the look and the uniform.

(I wear a lot of A Kurtz and designer skate clothes, if that helps).

I DJ dubstep, techno and house and recently a little disco, so I definitely think that qualifies. But maybe this is all just a description of my micro micro niche.
Hmm, I thought that this was all about the nu-rave / shoreditch twat / trucker cap / media mullet axis. It's not just about early adoption, there's a sense of decontextualization and stripping things of (their original) subcultural meanings. I've seen a few DJs at nights I'd associate with that sort of scene, and the mix of music was what you might call blogline - odds and sods of bassline, dubstep, crunk, old rave, nu rave, hyphy, garage, grime, jungle - mostly decent tunes, and all fairly obvious big anthems of their respective scenes, but the whole thing got a bit directionless after a while because the sets didn't have the context and inter-connected web of significance that you'd get from a pure jungle set or a pure grime set.

It seems kind of different from the traditional idea of white hipsters being obsessive about black / urban culture in that there doesn't seem to be the interest in the cultural nuances and the original context and in that it's a lot more eclectic and less into rarity and obscurity - most of the tunes I heard are actually ones that your mum would recognize, or at least that anyone with a cursory familiarity with the genre would consider a bit obvious.

I dunno if there is a sort of new context / new significance being stuck into the tune by hipster / scene culture or whether it's pure surface. I guess it could be interesting either way, but tbh it mostly gets on my tits. Maybe I'm going rockist, but taking a tune that's come out of some sort of urban struggle subculture and treating it as a mostly decontextualized piece of pure pop sonics for (normally fairly privileged, mostly white suburban) fashionistas makes me uneasy.
 

echevarian

babylon sister
I wouldn't worry or feel guilty about it, you don't sound like one of those twats that ride around on fixed gear bikes that the adbuster article was talking about.

I was out on Saturday and a couple of guys had left their bikes unlocked, they were brand new identical 300 dollar single speeds just sitting there.

I've never been more tempted to rob someone in my life before.


I might not be one of those twats, but I hang out with them. My friends listen to Girl Talk, and they went down to the Pitchfork festival this year.

I probably exist somewhere in the geek<--->hipster spectrum.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Their very LACK of obsession, of real personal engagement, is their main characteristic & seems to be the principal argument the self-proclaimed 'real' give against their 'right' to engage with the subcultures they toy with."
I was waiting to see if anyone would mention "realness" as it seems that usually one of the main things people define hipsters by is a lack of it relative to the purer and more genuine true fans. Surprised that idea took so long to pop up here to be honest. I think you're definitely right to use the scare-quotes as much as possible though - how does one define "realness" and, even if you can, how do you extend that to telling which people are real and which aren't?
 

echevarian

babylon sister
I saw a DJ called LA Riots recently, it was the sort of French electro mixed with a little urban flavor (baile, juke, Baltimore club, etc.)
that seems to be really popular now in Chicago and other cities in the Midwest.

It takes some kind of involvement to at least be aware of this music, you can't just cookie cut Diplo sets mixed with Justice.

But I doubt he's as deeply involved in the music's heritage as someone like Osunlade is with house.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Bit of a tangent, but what's the attraction of these single-speed bikes (beyond "cool people have them")? I seem to remember there was a thread about them on here a while back, can't be arsed to look for it now.

Edit: ahh, so it's a bit like a BMX?
 
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echevarian

babylon sister
http://www.duttyartz.com/2008/babel-dancing-in-tongues/

Matt Shadetek on the ethics of being a Shanty House DJ (don't play lyrics you don't understand basically).

The following discussion in the comments section covers a lot of the "realness" debate, I think they used to refer to it is as "soul".


(As an aside, single speed bikes are the best for trick riding, besides its the first kind of bike I ever owned, I used to love that thing)
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"But I doubt he's as deeply involved in the music's heritage as someone like Osunlade is with house."
Well, presumably if you have one dj who has dedicated his life to one type of music and compare him to someone who has dedicated the same amount of time to being a more eclectic dj then the first will know more about his music than the second dj will know about any given one of his musics - but isn't that merely an argument against eclecticism of any sort rather than hipster dj-ing? Or do you have a reason beyond the eclecticism for suspecting that the dj wasn't as involved as he might have been with each given style? I think that this is the realness argument isn't it?
 

echevarian

babylon sister
The music was fun, it seemed very influenced by rock's sonic legacy (very trebly), and seemed a little disposable.

But I think that history has proven that what seems like disposable music can often outlast the music that has "worthy" qualities.

I think people will still be dancing to Little Jon in 25 years, long after Osunlade has become just a footnote in the history of house.


The only thing that really bothers me about this style of DJing is that it caters primarily to coke heads, and I hate that shit with a passion.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
The Splitting of the Hipster Mind

I think they're the opposite, really. A nerd (if I'm right in conflating 'nerd' & 'geek') doesn't give a shit about what people think about him, hiding in personal obsession at the expense of status games. It's self-conscious outsiderism. 'Hipsters', according to every definition above, are interested in subcultures principally as a status game. It's self-conscious insiderism. Their very LACK of obsession, of real personal engagement, is their main characteristic & seems to be the principal argument the self-proclaimed 'real' give against their 'right' to engage with the subcultures they toy with.

One area where this division break downs is in murky grey area between hipsters and political intellectuals. Both are equally concerned with manipulating codes, both are intent on effect, appearance, show and tell. The one wants to be seen, the other wants to be heard. In a sense, nobody cares more about status games than intellectuals, upon which they depend absolutely.

The secret link between k-punk and hipsters is here, I think. The hipster/geek division could be easily mapped into academia - with geeks being the kinds of scholars who obsessively investigate, I don't know, medieval marriage rituals or whatever, whereas hipsters being the kinds of figures who feel disposed to pontificate on every matter under the sun, presently going around, whether they know that much about it or not. Echoing your comment, I'd say k-punk - and the Adbusters guy as well - is interested in hipsters, quoi topic, precisely as a status game.

I think the difference between K-Punk and our increasingly stereotypical young 20 something from a trendy area in London/New York/Paris/Berlin/LA is that we trade heavily in the cultural signs and signifiers of cool, while he analyzes from a distance. Its the process of constantly keeping the fashionable at arms reach, cherry picking only the most hyper fashionable that gives a hipster power.

But - in this semiotic space where we find ourselves - is not analysis itself a form of semiotic trading? More to the point, whatever else k-punk is, he clearly isn't distanced; quite the contrary, he is consistently very polemical, very judgemental, and, ironically, very consumer-friendly; decreeing this or that cool, this or that not cool. At bottom, he rates, no?

I think this is a very good quote:

Nah. Hipsters are poseurs who self consciously flit from one cultural meme to another, consuming on a superficial level in a desperate attempt to appear ahead of the game.

I think, first of all, on some level we are all doing this - I mean, engaging in a desperate attempt to appear ahead of the game. Different games, maybe, but games nonetheless. I don't think this trait could be confined to one subgroup, be it hipsters, or otherwise... and I also think that what the figure of the hipster often serves as is a convenient way for people to dissociate themselves (and, in cases where this applies) their audiences, from these games. But speaking for myself, I don't want to be dissociated from that.
 

mos dan

fact music
The people in the adbusters piece, didn't they exist ten years ago, only they wore 70s retro clothing instead of 80s and listened to Marky Mark rather than Girl Talk?

And if you wanna take it back even further what about the retro-soul "style culture" that gripped London's clubland pre-acid house? (As described in Energy Flash, I dunno much about it)

this is my prevailing feeling from the whole (quite interesting) debate: that we've found a new name for an age-old phenomenon (i bet oscar wilde was a twat).

basically you've always had a large middle bit in the venn diagram that unites 'fashion people' (in one circle) and 'twats' (in another).

these people are now more prominent than they were, because the greater atomisation of actual counter or sub cultural movements means it's harder for the media to spot the real thing. ironically, hipsters themselves are quite capable of keeping up with the latest 'real thing'.

i could go on about this for ages but i might just leave it at that for now.
 

slim jenkins

El Hombre Invisible
Interesting thread that I'm only half-interested in now that I'm an ageing hipster who no longer gives much of a toss about what The Kids are doing...

Where's Harry 'The Hipster' Gibson in all this? :D

When hipsters of old were mooching about in jazz dives they weren't plastered all over accessible media - of course. Now, typically, they're another dot of info/entertainment on the Big Screen. I read that those kids are 'hipsters'? Mmm. The classic definitions do mutate, don't they? Sounds as meaningful as labelling something 'cool' to me.

To be 'hip' is an antiquated term - obviously - but once meant being 'in the know', above and beyond mainstream culture to the point of refusing all labels slapped on by journos hungry for a 'beatnik' story. Perhaps these kids feel likewise. Or perhaps they're as shallow as a lot of you seem to think. I wouldn't know. I only go to bars where there are DJs playing old black music (think back past Jazz-Funk, kids).

Hipsters knew where they were at, if not where they were going, and recognised another by reading subtle signs. I suppose, like all subcultures now, these scenes are simply unable to thrive untainted by irony and self-conscious 'cool' because someone's always aiming a camera at them.
 
D

droid

Guest
I think, first of all, on some level we are all doing this - I mean, engaging in a desperate attempt to appear ahead of the game. Different games, maybe, but games nonetheless. I don't think this trait could be confined to one subgroup, be it hipsters, or otherwise... and I also think that what the figure of the hipster often serves as is a convenient way for people to dissociate themselves (and, in cases where this applies) their audiences, from these games. But speaking for myself, I don't want to be dissociated from that.

Are we? I agree absolutely that this isnt something confined to one subgroup, but image of the archetypical hipster is of one for whom this is the be all and end all.

Id consider myself to be of the nerd/obsessive/borderline aspergers ;) ilk myself, and my interactions with art/music have always been about being possessed by the media, unable to resist the urge to investigate/collect/analyse regardless of the social/image consequences, wheras the hipster approach is all about possessing the media. Picking and choosing your likes and dislikes based on whatever happens to be the current micro trend, whilst safely tucked away behind a veil of ironic distance.

Of course, the ultimate anti-hipster/hipster stance is automatic disdain of everything new and trendy, and theres a million permutations inbetween...

I do think the hipster hate thing is a bit OTT though. Most of them are just kids and will grow out of it. :D
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"wheras the hipster approach is all about possessing the media. Picking and choosing your likes and dislikes based on whatever happens to be the current micro trend, whilst safely tucked away behind a veil of ironic distance."
But how do you know who is doing this and who is into it for "real"?

Anyway, agreed on this bit:

"I also think that what the figure of the hipster often serves as is a convenient way for people to dissociate themselves (and, in cases where this applies) their audiences, from these games"
I think that this is what I was trying to get at with this bit:

"There is a sense that because of this you can use the term hipster as a kind of repository for anything negative you care to say about your almost-peers without ever having to worry about whether what you are saying applies to you in some way"
 
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