can't believe how bad the Libertines are

N

Ned

Ruby Tuesday
i was pointing out that the people i know who listen to athlete and snow patrol [and i know quite a few of them, in the late teens age group as i'm only a few years older than that myself] don't really seem to have any of the passion and enthusiasm for that music that is a large part of what i'd say being into music is all about.
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Have you ever seen footage of e.g. a Keane festival appearance? There are people screaming and crying and hugging each other and waving banners before the band have even come on. If you ask me, NME-readers have more passion and enthusiasm for their chosen music (undeserving as it mostly is) than anyone on this board, because inevitably all this intellectualising erodes that passion.

of course people like this music. obv people over a certain age don't because they've heard go4
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Ridiculous! I've heard all the albums that supposedly influenced Bloc Party, and I still prefer Bloc Party. Original does not equal moving or enjoyable.
 
B

Backjob

Well-known member
simon silverdollar said:
in my experience, most people who like athlete, snow patrol, keane, 'use' this music in a different way from, for example, the happy hardcore kids- as a background to writing their essays, or something to listen to while doing the washing up, or whatever. that's fine, and i listen to music in similar ways quite often, but what worries me is that for many people of my age this is THE ONLY place music has in their lives. may be it's the NME's fault, may it isn't. i just find it sad, because i think there is music out there that for just about anyone to really love, and we're at the stage now where that kind of experience is lacking in a lot of people's lives. i don't know why: it could be that the media is 'failing' people by not giving them info on bands they can connect with, but i'm not sure.
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Well, this is hardly a new phenomenon. Nor is it one that is restricted to Snow Patrol listeners. That "music to put on in the background while doing the dishes" slot has been filled, variously, by bands such as Massive Attack, Pulp, Portishead, Chemical Brothers and Black Eyed Peas depending on time and place.

A lot of people don't have an intense relationship with music, nor do they want one. A lot of people like music which "sounds nice" and don't think about it much more than that.

So, while these people utterly infuriate me on a personal level (my colleagues listen to the same coldplay and dido songs on the office stereo EVERY FUCKING DAY) I don't think they're evidence of some evil indie conspiracy to eliminate black music and "progress".
 
M

michael

Bring out the vacuum
Backjob said:
Well, this is hardly a new phenomenon. Nor is it one that is restricted to Snow Patrol listeners. That "music to put on in the background while doing the dishes" slot has been filled, variously, by bands such as Massive Attack, Pulp, Portishead, Chemical Brothers and Black Eyed Peas depending on time and place.
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Yeah, damn right. And going further back, cult bands like The Smiths or The Cocteau Twins filled similar slots for some... while there were listeners who wanted to engage with the music on another level, it can be used in that functional vein. The sounds are polite, so there's no pressure to engage.

Re: it not being a new phenomenon, I remember seeing stats which would've been over 10 years ago about the tiny tiny proportion of people who shop outside the wall display of new releases and top 20 when in a record shop. It was something like 1 in 100. Total supposition, but I'm guessing those same 99 bods would be the ones who are looking for some nice sounds to sing along to in the shower, or have on when doing the dishes or whatever.
 
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k-punk

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
Any argument that starts 'Some people....' is always depressingly relativistic...

Some people like pop to be background muzak.

Some people cry and get hysterical over mediocre indie windies.

Some people supported Nazism in the Thirties. So?

There are number of issues here:

1. The claims made on behalf of rock losers like the Libertines, Keane et al are not that they make music to wash dishes to (I would say music for students to drink subsidised lager out of plastic glasses in a Union bar meself but ...). If that was admitted, I'd be satisfied, point proven in fact - students will always like crap, they always have. No - and this was part of my point in starting this thread - these bands are held up as Important, showered with awards by the NME, the object of interminable sycopanthic discourse. This has an effect of ratcheting down expectations, contributing to a vicious circle of mediocrity begetting mediocrity.

2. It really hasn't always been like this. Up until the Smiths, independent music did what it said on the tin: i.e. it WAS independent , fiercely so, and, like mainstream pop, it was MODERNIST - i.e. it wouldn't tolerate rockism, copyism, retreading. Now, only pop is modernist, indie is postmodern. There doesn't have to be an explicit 'conspiracy' to remove black music; that is just the default option for British white students. This is one way in which postmodern postpunk Trad is different from original postpunk - from Scritti to Gang of 4 to Slits, postpunk was about a DIALOGUE with black musics. So where independent music once exerted a pressure towards invention, now it exerts a pressure towards reiteration, conformity and tedious humanism.
 
B

Backjob

Well-known member
Yeh, but that's plainly a category mistake of confusing "indie" the genre with "independent music". Aftershock is an independent label, Kompakt is an independent label, and both of those cleave to a "modernist agenda". And if the point is "the mainstream media support unchallenging music" thats as unsurprising as "students like shit music" no?

Indie's been shit for years, but honestly I think it's fair to say it's a lot less shit these days than it has been for a long time...
 
k-punk

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
The media situation has reached a new low, though, surely. It IS actually surprising to me (1) how shit the Libertines and the like are and (2) how easy it is for them to gain acclaim. The situation is getting worse, not better.

I take the point about indie, but I guess the label 'independent' was never that much to do with labels, but aesthetics. The important thing is that the dominance of 'indie' means that most white British non-mainstream, non-'dance' music IS resolutely anti-modernist.

I just don't see any 'improvement' in indie, although for me, as I said before, the postion is a priori. There's no more prospect of an 'improved' Indie than there is of an 'improved' Trad Jazz.
 
B

bassnation

the abyss
Ned said:
Have you ever seen footage of e.g. a Keane festival appearance? There are people screaming and crying and hugging each other and waving banners before the band have even come on. If you ask me, NME-readers have more passion and enthusiasm for their chosen music (undeserving as it mostly is) than anyone on this board, because inevitably all this intellectualising erodes that passion.
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most of the people on this board have been ravers at some point or another - and you don't get more passion and pure energy in response to music than that. surely its possible to enjoy music on both an intellectual and a more visceral level also?
 
M

mms

sometimes
bassnation said:
most of the people on this board have been ravers at some point or another - and you don't get more passion and pure energy in response to music than that. surely its possible to enjoy music on both an intellectual and a more visceral level also?
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this argument seems to be going round and round tho, it's about the level of commitment from the press in bigging up music that is truly unremarkable, i mean look at any daily newspaper and there are stories on the goings on of smackboy.

The idea that nme readers care more about music cos they cry at keane gigs is silly , arguing passionatley about music comes out of responses to music on many levels surely.

jesus i'd hate to live in a world where i'm told i don't really like music unless i respond to it by waving banners and holding my pals at some student celebration of fucking averageness.

one of the big problems i had with raves personally was unless you were smiling all the time, e'd up ravey davy's would think you were being moody, when you might just be not buzzing off yr head and wanting a piss.
 
M

mpc

wasteman
nothing to do with topic...

re: having to look extremely happy while in a club...

there are always loads of 40 year old 'ravers' who go to the haywire sessions or wang who expect you to be dancing all night long like you've never heard music before. fuck off back to the early nineties you pensioners. that's what i think anyway.... :) :mad: :p ;) :( :confused: :D :cool: :eek:
 
N

Ned

Ruby Tuesday
surely its possible to enjoy music on both an intellectual and a more visceral level also?
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Yeah, but I think the more you get of one the less you get of the other. Anything you say about a band (like that they're unoriginal) that isn't to do with the music itself, but is merely to do with context, is going to mean you enjoy it less in that pure teenage way, because you're thinking about other things.
 
G

gumdrops

Well-known member
theyre fucking brilliant live. and i saw them without pete, thought they were one of the best bands ive ever seen.

the new album is kinda shit, barring three songs - cant stand me now, what katie did and what happened to the likely lads, but the first one is still great. why anyone would prefer the likes of the zutons im not sure.
 
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bassnation

the abyss
Ned said:
Yeah, but I think the more you get of one the less you get of the other. Anything you say about a band (like that they're unoriginal) that isn't to do with the music itself, but is merely to do with context, is going to mean you enjoy it less in that pure teenage way, because you're thinking about other things.
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but music is context, that is part of the enjoyment and for me at least, it doesnt make it any less visceral. for instance, the buzz i get from listening to a vintage nicky blackmarket set isn't depleted by my knowledge of the musics origins, its development and social context. in fact, if anything it feeds the more emotional, lower-level reaction.

without social context, music becomes a series of pretty notes. i don't think its even possible to listen without these kinds of preconceptions.
 
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be.jazz

Guest
I can't believe how bad Daft Punk's "Robot Rock" is.

Kinda ironic after hearing how excited LCD Soundsystem were when they learned that DP was playing at their house.
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
we are still waiting for something truly new. but it's coming. it will be punk in the sense that it will be totally DIY and controlled by the creators. it will involve guitars and music software being used in different homemade and non-audiophile ways.
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2005, the prophet speaks.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
YAY, k-punk predicted Sid Viscous back in 2005!

Edit: aww, not k-punk. Never mind, still cool.
 
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Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Just scanning back to the last page and having a good chuckle at Mark F comparing fans of commercial indie to Nazi supporters.

Also, holy shit but other D bods used to go to Wang! I thought that was just me and Idle and (maybe once or twice) Dan?
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
egg said:
stop listening with your head.

'up the bracket' is irrepressible in terms of energy and emotion. of course it sounds like old music but it doesn't matter how old the music is if it makes you feel, and music that makes you feel is rare. that's why they're celebrated. listen to it again without the preconceptions you brought to it first time. don't expect to hear something new and then you will hear something new.

do not let the poor/stylised production prevent you from hearing the energy and the songs.

'the libertines' is jaded and worse in the same way that many 2nd albums are cf 'de la soul is dead'.

sadly although i have seen them twice they were missing pete on both occasions so i did not get the same sense of emotional energy and connection.

on the other hand franz ferdinand is all surface in the same way that girls aloud is. no emotional connection involved. but very good melodic and lyrical sense - which sells - despite it being empty. i think people may carry on buying franz ferdinand but they will never be passionate about them like the (smaller number of) people that buy the libertines stuff.

yes we are still waiting for something truly new. but it's coming. it will be punk in the sense that it will be totally DIY and controlled by the creators, in the same sense that grime is punk. but it will involve guitars and music software being used in different homemade and non-audiophile ways.
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wasnt mark it was someone called 'egg' who i dont remember at all
 
Corpsey

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Great thread, not entirely due to k punk but largely

I was a crazed libertines fan when I was about 18. Well, semi crazed. They seemed to offer a way for a bookish twerp to be cool. And it would be hard for me to say whether or not they were any good now because I'm pierced and poisoned with nostalgia. The thing that distinguished them at the time (as opposed to the other retro bands NME were foisting down my virginal ears) was that they sounded like they were recording while falling down some stairs.

(Fave choon was "tell the king" FYI)

Amazing to see the Stereophonics praised on here!

(As in astounding)
 
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