High profiles murders in the U.S: what is going on?

vimothy

yurp
Yes, Vimothy. It was Waffle's post that was offensive.

Offensive and totally unwarranted, yes.

Yes, Waffle is by far the most offensive poster on this thread.

It's his choice to be like that.

Thanks for throwing in your completely disengaged, unwarranted dig at Waffle.

But this is too much. Waffles brought another poster into this thread merely to score stupid points based on his inability to understand formal modelling, and falsely implied that the poster, and the use of formal modelling, rationalises or somehow condones rape.

Additionally, waffles has misrepresented and insulted me up and down this forum for the last month. When I've tried to challenge him, apparently I'm trolling. And again here. "I pity waffles" is about as nasty as I've been. Is that unfair?

It's a completely legitimate criticism of game theory to point out that it reduces the political realm out of existence by denying external ideological motivations. This is not a new idea. Waffle isn't the only person who's ever pointed this out. I'm sure 3BNP is smart enough to realize this.

Only it doesn't.

Also, thanks a million, 3BNP, for only contributing to this thread in order to talk about the hideous offenses of Waffle here.

Nomad -- please pay attention to what you're writing about.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Great points, Vimothy. "Only it doesn't" is one of the better defenses of game theory I've ever heard, and I took all sorts of classes on Theories of Mind, Theories of Language, Cognitive Science, Formal Logic, studied Quine in depth in a seminar, and spent years listening to and writing about the limitations of game theory.

But I'm glad your pat dismissal just negated all of that with its excellent analysis. Boy have you proved us wrong!

Thanks for the enlightening contributions to a serious discussion of important topics.

Did it ever occur to you that it was perhaps offensive to others when 3BNP tried to claim that all human behavior is reducable to game theory?

Why is *every* offense, in your mind, unilaterally committed by Waffle? You seem blinded by irrational hatred for someone on a message board. Forgive me, but it makes no sense to me.

If you're only going to post on threads to defend people against "offensive language", when in fact all Waffle said was that game theory has been used to make ridiculous arguments before, go ahead. It doesn't say much about your intelligence, however, that the only thing you think is "offensive" in this thread is what Waffle posted about game theory.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I find this post extremely objectionable, as it insinuates that I condone and rationalise rape in any form or shape.

This is totally uncalled for, and not based on anything I have said.

I'm curious--how would you "model" rape in game theoretical language?

I know that rational agents might choose to do something for immoral or unethical reasons, but game theory assumes all subjects are rational agents, or at very least does not sufficiently account for pathology and its social effects. Not all acts are rational. Not everyone makes choices based on universally recognized or recognizable "best possible outcomes."

There's a death drive, too.

Anyway, if you disagree, please, enlighten us all as to what you believe about these matters. I'm interested.
 
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3 Body No Problem

Well-known member
It's a completely legitimate criticism of game theory to point out that it reduces the political realm out of existence by denying external ideological motivations.

It is indeed a completely legitimate criticism, albeit one that's easy to refute. I've tried many timed to argue why it's based on a misunderstanding of game theory, but waffle refused to engage instead any constructive discourse.

It is not legitimate to criticise me by insinuating that I was condoning sexual violence.

Also, thanks a million, 3BNP, for only contributing to this thread in order to talk about the hideous offenses of Waffle here.

Have you considered the possibility that I might not have been encouraged to contribute to this thread because I'm afraid of waffles cyberthug aggro?
 

3 Body No Problem

Well-known member
Did it ever occur to you that it was perhaps offensive to others when 3BNP tried to claim that all human behavior is reducable to game theory?

Did it ever occur to you that it was perhaps offensive to others when Darwin tried to claim that all humans descend from apes?

when in fact all Waffle said was that game theory has been used to make ridiculous arguments before,


This is not all that Waffle has said.

Yes, it's true that game theory has been used in all sorts of nonsensical context, and I would count some of conventional economical theory in this regard (at least where it claims to be a good model of real economic behaviour). But so what? Lacan, feminist theory and mathemtics have been used "to make ridiculous arguments before". Why is that interesting?

game theory assumes all subjects are rational agents,

This is just wrong, as was pointed out repeatedly. Plenty of game theory makes no such assumptions, for example the game theory in this marvellous book. You are confusing a specific application of game theory with game theory proper.

or at very least does not sufficiently account for pathology and its social effects. Not all acts are rational. Not everyone makes choices based on universally recognized or recognizable "best possible outcomes."

Sure. Has this ever been denied by anyone intelligent? Even the original von Neumann & Morgenstern pointed out the experimental nature of their models of rationality.
 

jambo

slip inside my schlafsack
I've learned a lot of valuable lessons in New York. If it weren't for all those assaults that I "opened the door" for so many times on the subway and at work, I would never have stopped wearing fitted clothes, ceased wearing skirts and dresses entirely unless I could afford a taxi both ways, and begun to wear my coat over my clothing for the entire work day and even on the subway in the summer.
So, you altered your behaviour in view of circumstances, which is precisely what I've been talking about, and I believe what Shonx has been talking about as well.

Your point about the circumstances of most rapes and relationship to alcohol consumption is taken and has been acknowledged several times so please don't rush to see this as applied to that specifically.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I don't think Waffles was being very aggressive in this thread at all. No one was until this whole nonsense "conflict" got blown way out of proportion.

Jambo, I wasn't serious. That was a joke. I wear whatever I damn well please, and I've actually been assaulted more times in plain old conservative "business casual" clothes than I have tight or revealing clothes. Also more often during the day than at night.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
No, I'm not confusing one type of game theory for all game theory. I'm pointing out why game theory is uninteresting to me and why it seems severely limited and limiting.

What do people really end up *doing* with game theory, right? They use it to try to predict who will buy what, or what an "economy" is going to look like.

Sometimes this is useful, but I don't find it very insightful. Without the insights of psychoanalysis, there'd be no predicting what subjects would do.

Game theory, when applied in the sorts of ways as the book you link to, is ultimately reliant upon other models for much of its predictive powers.

I'm waiting for you to explain how you'd model rape using game theory.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
It is indeed a completely legitimate criticism, albeit one that's easy to refute. I've tried many timed to argue why it's based on a misunderstanding of game theory, but waffle refused to engage instead any constructive discourse.

It is not legitimate to criticise me by insinuating that I was condoning sexual violence.



Have you considered the possibility that I might not have been encouraged to contribute to this thread because I'm afraid of waffles cyberthug aggro?

No one said you were condoning sexual violence, Waffle implied that game theory is one of the favorite tools of certain people on the far right to justify all sorts of ugly, crazy thinking (believe it or not, I definitely *have* heard people use things like game theory or set theory or whatever to condone violence and all sorts of crazy behaviors...the idea is that "people are selfish"...you know that they'll only work if there's some illusion presented that they may one day own the factory instead of working in it). He was making a point that given how many threads have gone lately, he could imagine game theory being brought up again in this context, and he thought that would be inappropriate.

I didn't think it was possible for people to be afraid of someone who disagreed with them on a message board.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
And yes, it has occurred to me that some people are offended by the theory of evolution. I live in the U.S., I get to hear crazy fundamentalist Christians whine about how persecuted they are for having their unscientific theories shut out of science curricula in public schools all the time.

And?

Is this somehow relevant to some dispute on Dissensus?
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
I didn't think it was possible for people to be afraid of someone who disagreed with them on a message board.
I've avoided threads because I know that if I deviate in any degree from what some of the posters believe to be the right way to think then I wont get any productive discussion and I will be subjected to a torrent of incoherent abuse calling me a racist neocon paedophile and I really can't be arsed. I don't know if that constitutes being afraid of someone or not. I guess it depends whether I'm viewing myself as a victim or not...
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
*wipes lone tear from eye*

On this board a lot of posters get it from all sides.

I've been called all sorts of things myself. A liar, a ruiner of the caliber of the board, a rich spoiled JAP like "Le Colonel Chabert" (and presumably a hypocrite whose political affiliations amount to nothing more than reactionary PC dogmatism), an extremist, someone incapable of understanding arguments because I disagree with them, etc.

Considering the sources I really couldn't care less.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Some people enjoy disagreement, even heated disagreement, because they learn more from it than they do from measured, careful, timid discussions...and also because they can have polite discussions at the corporate water cooler or at dinner with the family.

I wouldn't take anything on the internet personally. There's no way it can be meant personally. We're all just words on a screen here.

Only a few people here actually know me as a person. I would listen to their constructive criticism of my posts with great interest. But as for people assuming they know who I am as a *person* based on a couple of anecdotes I've told or my mental health diagnoses, or doing the same about anyone else for that matter--that's just silly. And doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
Man in Santa suit kills at least six at Covina party, police say
Barbara Davidson, Los Angeles Times


A distraught man dressed as Santa Claus opened fire at a Christmas Eve party and then set the house ablaze, killing at least six people, police said. Several hours later, the shooter killed himself.

Three people who attended the party remained unaccounted for Thursday afternoon as coroner officials continued to search through the wreckage.

Bruce Jeffrey Pardo, 45, who had recently been divorced and is believed to have lost his job, knocked on the front door of a home owned by the parents of his ex-wife in Covina around 11:30 Wednesday night, said Police Chief Kim Raney.

An 8-year-old girl ran to the door to answer Pardo's knock, police said. He shot her in the face, stepped into the house and began to fire indiscriminately with a semiautomatic handgun.

Pardo was carrying what appeared to be a large present but was what police described as a home-made pressurized device used to spray some kind of flammable substance. Pardo is thought to have worked in the aerospace industry as an engineer, police and acquaintances said.

Partygoers fled the house on Knollcrest Drive in panic, running to neighbors' homes and frantically calling police. A teenage girl, according to a neighbor who later helped her, leaped out of a second-floor window, breaking her ankle. The 8-year-old girl and a 16-year-old girl who was shot in the back escaped the house and were transported to local hospitals, officials said.

Police Lt. Pat Buchanan said the injuries were not life-threatening and that none of the dead had been identified, saying that the bodies were badly burned. Pardo's ex-wife and her parents are among the missing or dead, police said.

Tom Minter, 78, who lives a few doors down on the placid, middle-class street, said he was washing dishes when he heard a loud bang. Soon after, police SWAT officers rushed a man and two women who been at the party into his home, sat them down in the hallway and turned off all lights in the house, Minter said. Both women were crying and the man was talking into his cellphone, saying 'They're all dead, he shot them all,' " Minter said. Paramedics came a few hours later, treated them for their injuries and escorted them out.

Robin Myers, 50, who lives with her mother in the house behind the one Pardo attacked, was at home working on her computer when the attack happened.

"I heard an explosion and I went out to investigate because it was pretty loud," Myers said. "I went outside and saw a wall of flames."

The two-story house, located at the end of a quiet cul-de-sac, was fully engulfed by fire, Los Angeles County fire officials said. About 80 firefighters were initially kept at bay by police who feared that the gunman was still in the area. They battled flames that soared 40 to 50 feet high for an hour and a half before extinguishing the fire, according to Capt. Mike Brown. Amid the ruins, the second floor of the house had collapsed onto the ground.

"It was a very dynamic situation," he said.

Shortly before 3:30 a.m., Pardo's brother summoned Los Angeles police to his Sylmar home -- about 25 miles away from the carnage. Officers arrived to find Pardo dead from a single gunshot to the head, police officials said. When the officers ran Pardo's name through a law-enforcement database, they were alerted that he was wanted by Covina police.

By 9 a.m., a pair of Covina detectives had arrived at the tan stucco house in Montrose that Pardo owned and lived in, cordoning it off with tape. Candy cane decorations were affixed to the fence and a holiday wreath hung on the front door. An SUV and a military-style Hummer were parked in the driveway. The detectives sat in their car awaiting a judge to sign a search warrant for the house. "Maybe there's some [sign of] planning, maybe letters or anything that will give us more clues about the state of his mind," said Det. Antonio Zavala.

At 3 p.m., members of the Los Angeles County sheriff's bomb squad and other detectives came to the house. Several of the police approached the house with guns drawn, calling out, "We're police! We have a search warrant!" When no one responded, they used a battering ram on the door and entered.

One detective, speaking on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to talk to news media, said they had found evidence inside that Pardo had prepared for the attack. He did not elaborate.

Pardo had lived at the home alone, Zavala said. Court records show that his wife divorced him last September. He "was apparently going through a bad time in his marriage," Buchanan said. Neighbors said that until earlier this year, Pardo lived in the house with his ex-wife and her three children. They were often seen walking their dog through the neighborhood.

Pardo was, by many accounts, an unassuming, religious man, who tended to his garden and served regularly as an usher at evening Mass at Holy Redeemer Catholic Church in Montrose.

"Bruce?" said an incredulous Jan Detanna, the head usher at the church, when told about the attack. "I'm just -- this is shocking. He was the nicest guy you could imagine. Always a pleasure to talk to, always a big smile." Pardo, Detanna said, had volunteered to usher at the midnight Mass on Christmas Eve -- which began as the rampage was unfolding in Covina.

Bong Garcia, Pardo's next door neighbor, said he last saw Pardo between 9 and 10 p.m. and exchanged brief greetings. Pardo told him he was on his way to a Christmas party and walked down the street dressed in regular clothes, Garcia said

Gazing at the eerie scene of destruction, Frank Castillo, 46, stood at the yellow police tape trying unsuccessfully to obtain information about relatives he said had been at the party.

Castillo said a family member had called to tell him that his former sister-in-law, Sylvia Castillo, who is her 30s, had died in the attack. His nephew, Sal Castillo, 19, whom family members called Baby Sal, and a niece, Selina Castillo, were also in the house, he said.

"I want to make sure my nephew and niece are OK," he said, choking back tears.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-santa-shooting26-2008dec26,0,6505439.story
 
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