Apparently Barack "isn't black"

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
If one accepts the first two propositions, one may have a few embarrassments with expressions like "biological fact" (and might enjoy pointing out that race has enjoyed, for a significant part of its ignominious history, precisely the status of "biological fact", with many "scientific propositions" being devoted to its elucidation)...

Who accepted the first two?

"Reality is socially constructed"? First, I've never heard anyone say this, let alone a PC true-believer. Most people who are fervently "PC" believe very strongly in social realism.

Pseudo-scientific elucidations, don't you mean?
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
But I'm not sure that the assertion of the incoherence of race is primarily an assertion of biological fact in any case. Obviously I agree that race as a notion has no coherent mapping to what we know of actual human biodiversity. But it's incoherent even at the level at which it now operates, that of "demographic" or "culturalised" racism. And I don't think that biological racism faded simply because it was scientifically discredited. Scientifically discrediting nefarious ideas has not, historically, proven to be a stunningly effective way of making them go away.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Who exactly are these scurillous PC minions who go around doing crazy things like believing that reality doesn't exist except through language, and that race isn't "real", and questioning the basis in reality of our racial stereotypes? How terrible of them!

I can't think of a single example of one of these people, and I can think of lots and lots of PC ideologues.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
But I'm not sure that the assertion of the incoherence of race is primarily an assertion of biological fact in any case. Obviously I agree that race as a notion has no coherent mapping to what we know of actual human biodiversity. But it's incoherent even at the level at which it now operates, that of "demographic" or "culturalised" racism. And I don't think that biological racism faded simply because it was scientifically discredited. Scientifically discrediting nefarious ideas has not, historically, proven to be a stunningly effective way of making them go away.

Of course not. But that doesn't mean that pretending that "race" is anything but a social construct leads us down the path of conceptual and political righteousness.
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
Who accepted the first two?

Me neither.

"Reality is socially constructed"? First, I've never heard anyone say this

You've obviously read fewer bad books than I have, then.

, let alone a PC true-believer. Most people who are fervently "PC" believe very strongly in social realism.

This has not been my experience. Certainly some very PC queer-theory types I've known have also been very into Judith Butler, who in turn was very into regarding things less enlightened people thought of as "real" as discursive effects.

Pseudo-scientific elucidations, don't you mean?

Surprisingly few people thought so at the time.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
You've obviously read fewer bad books than I have, then.

Oh, have I? Care to name some?

Judith Butler talked about gender being a discursive effect, not "reality."

My undergraduate thesis advisor was one of the leading Derridean scholars and queer theory proponents in the U.S., and I think you're being just a tad inflammatory and ridiculous here. People who reject social realism are hardly as simplistic about it as you seem to want to believe they are.

But again, it's your strawman, make it as silly as you like.
 
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poetix

we murder to dissect
Oh, have I? Care to name some?

I open this to the floor. What bad books have you read that claimed that reality was socially constructed? Ironically, I haven't read this one.

Lyotard has a generally anti-realist bent. Feyerabend certainly. Actually I don't really think either of them are "bad" as such. Rorty, now he's bad. But I can't help loving him, all the same.

Judith Butler talked about gender being a discursive effect, not "reality."

Gender would be one of those things that less-enlightened people regard as real. The point was that a) I have certainly known very PC people who were also enthusiastic about Judith Butler, b) whatever else she may be, Butler isn't a "social realist", at least about gender and - I believe, but don't ask me to quote chapter and verse on this - about race as well c) therefore, in my experience, there have been very PC people who were not also social realists.

My undergraduate thesis advisor was one of the leading Derridean scholars and queer theory proponents in the U.S

My postgraduate thesis adviser knew a lot about E. Nesbitt*. It didn't rub off.

I was so into Derrida once that I used to send people** Plato-and-Socrates postcards during the holidays. Best day of my life, when I discovered the Bodleian giftshop still had them in stock.

., and I think you're being just a tad inflammatory and ridiculous here.

I'm trying to make serious points in an amusing way. I can do po-faced, if you'd rather.

People who reject social realism are hardly as simplistic about it as you seem to want to believe they are.

Oh no, they're very complex and nuanced. They're all totally allergic to claims about "biological fact", though. They might allow that race isn't a matter of biological fact, but they'd mostly rather die than allow that it's a matter of biological fact that there's no such thing as race.

* This is actually true. Honesty requires me to admit that I never submitted my thesis***. Or wrote more than about a third of it.
** Girls I wanted to cop off with. It didn't work.
*** About the poetry of Geoffrey Hill, thanks for asking.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I'm:

Italian
Danish
German
Jewish
"Gypsy" whatever that means
Scottish

Most people here, the vast majority, other than first generation immigrants, have a mixture of a number of ethnic groups in their heritage.

Forgot one--French Canadian.

I mostly identify with Italian-Americans culturally because I was mostly raised by them.

Yeah, but they're all basically 'white', aren't they? I mean, to be ultra-pedantic, someone of mixed Mandinka/Zulu/Maasai/Tutsi heritage would be 'mixed race' (or mixed ethnicity, if we're going to avoid the term 'race'), but to anyone who didn't take a professional interest in African ethnography, they'd just be 'black' in the same way that you are 'white'.

As you say, it's got a lot to do with culture, and particularly the culture you were brought up in, which is very important to how people see themselves.
 

waffle

Banned
Barack Obama understands the horrible effects of social constructions like race and the resulting norms as well as anyone and better than most.

This thread appears to be a continuation of two other threads, particularly the Bell Curve one, by populist means. Maybe, then, we can confirm what you are saying here by considering Obama's own critique of race/racism on National Public Radio from 1994, when he was a civil rights lawyer, via this response to Charles Murray's Bell Curve pseudo-science. [Perhaps I'm just imagining it, but it is clear that - at least in 1994 - Obama believed that racism/race is a 'construct' deriving from economic inequalities and invoked to perpetuate such inequalities, a belief later manifested in his electioneering slogan "This is not about race". Unfortunately, he's also a pragmatist attempting to confront existing structures of power, which is why he will soon become nothing more than a "magical negro" figurehead ("We have to be realistic") for the neo-liberal ruling class elite of the Democratic Party].

NPR
October 28, 1994
SHOW: All Things Considered (NPR 4:30 pm ET)

Charles Murray's Political Expediency Denounced
BYLINE: BARACK OBAMA
SECTION: News; Domestic
LENGTH: 635 words




HIGHLIGHT: Commentator Barack Obama finds that Charles Murray, author of the controversial "The Bell Curve," demonstrates not scientific expertise but spurious political motivation in his conclusions about race and IQ.

BARACK OBAMA, Commentator: Charles Murray is inviting American down a dangerous path.

NOAH ADAMS, Host: Civil rights lawyer, Barack Obama.

Mr. OBAMA: The idea that inferior genes account for the problems of the poor in general, and blacks in particular, isn't new, of course. Racial supremacists have been using IQ tests to support their theories since the turn of the century. The arguments against such dubious science aren't new either. Scientists have repeatedly told us that genes don't vary much from one race to another, and psychologists have pointed out the role that language and other cultural barriers can play in depressing minority test scores, and no one disputes that children whose mothers smoke crack when they're pregnant are going to have developmental problems.

Now, it shouldn't take a genius to figure out that with early intervention such problems can be prevented. But Mr. Murray isn't interested in prevention. He's interested in pushing a very particular policy agenda, specifically, the elimination of affirmative action and welfare programs aimed at the poor. With one finger out to the political wind, Mr. Murray has apparently decided that white America is ready for a return to good old-fashioned racism so long as it's artfully packaged and can admit for exceptions like Colin Powell. It's easy to see the basis for Mr. Murray's calculations. After watching their income stagnate or decline over the past decade, the majority of Americans are in an ugly mood and deeply resent any advantages, realor perceived, that minorities may enjoy.

I happen to think Mr. Murray's wrong, not just in his estimation of black people, but in his estimation of the broader American public. But I do think Mr. Murray's right about the growing distance between the races. The violence and despair of the inner city are real. So's the problem of street crime. The longer we allow these problems to fester, the easier it becomes for white America to see all blacks as menacing and for black America to see all whites as racist. To close that gap, we're going to have to do more than denounce Mr. Murray's book. We're going to have to take concrete and deliberate action. For blacks, that means taking greater responsibility for the state of our own communities. Too many of us use white racism as an excuse for self-defeating behavior. Too many of our young people think education is a white thing and that the values of hard work and discipline andself-respect are somehow outdated.

That being said, it's time for all of us, and now I'm talking about the larger American community, to acknowledge that we've never even come close to providing equal opportunity to the majority of black children. Real opportunity would mean quality prenatal care for all women and well-funded and innovative public schools for all children. Real opportunity would mean a job at a living wage for everyone who was willing to work, jobs that can return some structure and dignity to people's lives and give inner-city children something more than a basketball rim to shoot for. In the short run, such ladders of opportunity are going to cost more, not less, than either welfare or affirmative action. But, in the long run, our investment should payoff handsomely. That we fail to make this investment is just plain stupid. It's not the result of an intellectual deficit. It's the result of a moral deficit.

ADAMS: Barack Obama is a civil rights lawyer and writer. He lives in Chicago.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Gender would be one of those things that less-enlightened people regard as real. The point was that a) I have certainly known very PC people who were also enthusiastic about Judith Butler, b) whatever else she may be, Butler isn't a "social realist", at least about gender and - I believe, but don't ask me to quote chapter and verse on this - about race as well c) therefore, in my experience, there have been very PC people who were not also social realists.



My postgraduate thesis adviser knew a lot about E. Nesbitt*. It didn't rub off.

I was so into Derrida once that I used to send people** Plato-and-Socrates postcards during the holidays. Best day of my life, when I discovered the Bodleian giftshop still had them in stock.



I'm trying to make serious points in an amusing way. I can do po-faced, if you'd rather.



Oh no, they're very complex and nuanced. They're all totally allergic to claims about "biological fact", though. They might allow that race isn't a matter of biological fact, but they'd mostly rather die than allow that it's a matter of biological fact that there's no such thing as race.

* This is actually true. Honesty requires me to admit that I never submitted my thesis***. Or wrote more than about a third of it.
** Girls I wanted to cop off with. It didn't work.
*** About the poetry of Geoffrey Hill, thanks for asking.

So Judith Butler is merely a PC fundamentalist because she doesn't believe that gender and race are not social constructs? I'm sorry, but that just sounds like garden variety anti-intellectualism to me. Just because it's not a common-use sort of idea doesn't mean it's wrong, nor does it mean it's hopelessly "PC." Judith Butler in Gender Trouble said a lot of things that are not politically correct in the U.S.

Political correctness is not a monolith, either. What's politically correct in one country might not be in another. See: sex ed in New York versus sex ed in sub-Saharan Africa.
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
from a boring semi-trad. sociological point of view, whilst genetics can be mapped out, whether or not obama is black/white/a mix of the two (w/ regard to ethnicity rather than race) will very much be a construct created through negotiation- a combination of how obama sees himself (growing up in a 'white' household, knowing his family heritage etc) and how others see him (whether he is seen as black/white/ a mix of the two by those who interact with him).

so, if the unknown obama encountered racism in his everyday contact (getting on a bus, going into a shop), this will have an impact on how he percieves his own ethnicity, to a greater or lesser extent. or vice versa.

if he had/has a sibling who did not share visual identifiers of being 'black', their perception of their own ethnicity may be slightly different. as will be others perception of them.

in terms of 'social reality', i'm guessing that obama would struggle in some circumstances to overcome the perception of being 'black' (e.g. the mainly white village i live in), whilst in others he may be seen being nearer to 'white' (think of your own example).

that is the area of interest rather than any objective measurement. but i don't wish to go over the whole bell curve stuff again, mainly because i was v.rude to vimothy, for which i can only apologise :(.

as is often the case, maybe some agreement on definition of terms might be useful
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Yeah, but they're all basically 'white', aren't they? I mean, to be ultra-pedantic, someone of mixed Mandinka/Zulu/Maasai/Tutsi heritage would be 'mixed race' (or mixed ethnicity, if we're going to avoid the term 'race'), but to anyone who didn't take a professional interest in African ethnography, they'd just be 'black' in the same way that you are 'white'.

As you say, it's got a lot to do with culture, and particularly the culture you were brought up in, which is very important to how people see themselves.

But you can look at an Italian person and say "hey, s/he has dark hair, and eyes, and a certain look that makes it obvious that he's Italian and shares genes with other Italians" just like you can say "that person looks black" or jamaican, or whatever...ethnicity is not the same as race, ethnic groups are groups that share common religion and nationality and culture...I think talking about difference w/r/t humans makes much more sense in terms of a less abstract grouping system such as ethnicity. Ethnicity acknowledges the cultural basis of difference, and the geographical basis of shared genes. It's not a perfect way to talk about difference, but I think it's less problematic than using "race" without challenging its conceptual basis.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
This thread appears to be a continuation of two other threads, particularly the Bell Curve one, by populist means. Maybe, then, we can confirm what you are saying here by considering Obama's own critique of race/racism on National Public Radio from 1994, when he was a civil rights lawyer, via this response to Charles Murray's Bell Curve pseudo-science. [Perhaps I'm just imagining it, but it is clear that - at least in 1994 - Obama believed that racism/race is a 'construct' deriving from economic inequalities and invoked to perpetuate such inequalities, a belief later manifested in his electioneering slogan "This is not about race". Unfortunately, he's also a pragmatist attempting to confront existing structures of power, which is why he will soon become nothing more than a "magical negro" figurehead ("We have to be realistic") for the neo-liberal ruling class elite of the Democratic Party].

But I'm happy to have Obama if I have to have someone, you know? I think he *is* aligned with radical leftism ideologically, but he has enough of a "this is what's going on, how can we fix it?" pragmatism to him that I think he may actually be able to get a few good things done.

He's not going to be a revolutionary, but barring the possibility of a revolutionary being elected president, I'm more than glad to accept Obama's policies as an alternative to the ones we've had for the past 25 years.
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
So Judith Butler is merely a PC fundamentalist

You need to slow down and try actually listening to what people are saying. No, I am not asserting that Judith Butler is "merely a PC fundamentalist". I am asserting that there exist, in my experience, people who are quite PC who also think Judith Butler is the bee's knees. Ergo, there exist PC people who are not social realists - I dispute, on this basis, your assertion that PC people tend also to be strongly social-realist.

Actually, you know what? I've just realised who you're going to be when you grow up. And that this is an aggravation I can live without...
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
You need to slow down and try actually listening to what people are saying. No, I am not asserting that Judith Butler is "merely a PC fundamentalist". I am asserting that there exist, in my experience, people who are quite PC who also think Judith Butler is the bee's knees. Ergo, there exist PC people who are not social realists - I dispute, on this basis, your assertion that PC people tend also to be strongly social-realist.

Actually, you know what? I've just realised who you're going to be when you grow up. And that this is an aggravation I can live without...

Excuse me?

If as you assert everyone who thinks like Judith Butler is some sort of crazy PC fascist, isn't it safe to assume that you think Judith Butler is in fact wrong about gender?

"PC" is a completely invidious comparison made by people who'd rather not talk about what people actually have written or what they actually believe, but would rather write them off in one fell swoop so they don't have to deal with them.

I have no idea who Le Colonel Chabert is, but I'd most likely rather be him than a fucking "nature is purposive" "race is real" moron. I'd also point out that you don't know me, but hey, what does that matter? It's more important to create broad categories to place people in so you can dismiss what they're saying with impunity.

We can't all be you, sadly.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Can people maybe try and sideline the bitchiness, one upmanship, willy waving, tit for tat, point scoring, snappy comebacks, pseudo stalking, personality clash, snideness?
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I feel bad for the U.K. I really do.

As soon as people begin making some progress so women and minorities can get ahead, you inevitably have a backlash of anti-intellectualism where White Men get all hot and bothered over the fact that people no longer want to hand over all the world's power to them. "Gender" has to be real, see, because a) most people think it is, and that's good enough, and b) if it isn't, then my puny sexuality has no grounds in "reality" boohoo.

Go read Maxim or Stuff and leave us horrible PC race disbelievers to ourselves.
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
Race is as real as fashion is. Or money. I personally hope for a future in which neither race, nor money, nor fashion is real in any sense whatsoever. I would say "not in my lifetime", but as of yesterday that doesn't seem such a safe way to bet.
 
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