Race, Gender , and Class

poetix

we murder to dissect
Coming back briefly to game theory, I think Curtis is guilty of some fairly lazy guilt-by-association-mongering in The Trap. Game theory describes games, or at least a certain class of games, pretty well. It doesn't describe people particularly well, except insofar as people are players of those sorts of games (cf the Transactional Analysis classic Games People Play). It does have the particular virtue of providing one with a language with which to talk about strategies without reference to the particular motivations of individual strategists - in other words, it is able to specify what Dennett calls "free-floating rationales" for behaviour (that is, for patterns of game-play) that are the rationales of no-one in particular, rationales that anyone at all (n'importe qui) might find it advantageous to adopt in certain sorts of strategic situation.

What's interesting about this is that although game theory begins with a kind of ahistorical, universal, atomic subject (homo economicus, rationally evaluating his options), it very quickly opens out into a theory of systemic strategic rationality in which the kinds of choices "you" might make are strongly contoured by rationales which were "there" (in the strategic situation) before you were. In other words, something suspiciously resembling class consciousness inexorably reappears on the scene in spite of having been explicitly excluded from the theory's fundamental premises. You could almost describe game theory as the ruling class's theory of class warfare...
 

waffle

Banned
I'm confused.

First poetix and 3BNP were in the thread about atheism trying to revise the meaning of "purpose" so it fits in well with a computational theory of The Nature of Things and How They Work. This was beside the point, since the thread was about Dawkins and atheism and a teleological brand of scientific fundamentalism. I love tangents and digressions, usually, so I didn't mind entertaining this one, however semantic and pedantic it may have seemed.

Then in another thread we were dragged into an argument about what "PC" means based on the idea that only the hopelessly PC believe that on the meta- or social level of human interaction, people (at least in part) construct "reality" (whatever *that* means) through the mediation of social factors and influences. Here it was suggested that race, though not a biological fact, is entirely real because some people believe it is. I'm interested in hyperstition, so I thought about this for a while. Ok. Beliefs often help construct "reality", too. And people, by virtue of their beliefs, often act in ways that influence social circumstances substantiality. I suppose I can buy "race" as "real" in this obviously nominal (and again, semantically tinkered with) sense.

But this is just too much. The same people who fought so hard for the last two ideas I mention above are now ready (it seems--correct me if I'm wrong) to reduce all social mediation to Game Theory.

Agreed. Game 'Theory' is a pseudo-formalized egomanical capitalism - for willing psychotics. No different to 'buying into' Scientology or 'race theory'.
 

vimothy

yurp
I do remember reading somewhere that Foucault was briefly quite interested in Hayek; although of course he was perfectly capable of being interested in thinkers and discussing their ideas without actually approving of them.

An important distinction!
 

zhao

there are no accidents
Originally Posted by Zhao
power, which is to say power over others, already existed for thousands of years prior to capitalism. and only with this given, this precondition, was capitalism, admittedly a radical shift, possible.

What do we usually mean when we say "power over others"? Larval Subjects has some interesting remarks below on the metaphysics attached to such Oedipal or patriarchal social structures:

Take the example of Deleuze and Guattari. Anti-Oedipus is not so much a critique of psychoanalysis– though it is that as well –as it is a critique of a particular social structure and the metaphysics that accompanies it. If an engagement with psychoanalysis proves to be the privileged site for an engagement with this structure, then this is not with the aim of reforming psychoanalysis– though that as well –but because psychoanalysis provides those weapons necessary for engaging this structure and developing a praxis that would allow for an escape from this structure. Politics, we might say, was at an impasse. The Russian Revolution was a failure. It had overturned those that controlled the means of production, yet the form of social organization remained the same. The content had changed, while the form remained in place. Just as I might replace a missing piece on a chess board with quarter, the material content had changed while essentially the same function or structure was in place. “Meet your new boss, same as the old boss.” The party elite now occupied the place of exploiter, producing a machine more harrowing than the factories in its capacity and reality of alienation, and while the owners of the means of production had changed, having been socialized or democratized, the form of production– Taylorism –remained the same. The French Communist Party was not much better. Here, once again, we had the same hierarchical structure, with a party elite calling the shots, making the decisions, organized around a centralized apparatus that radiated outwards, rather than the socialization or democratization that Marx had called for.

But this, in and of itself, was not the problem. Or rather, it was a problem, but the problem also lay elsewhere. All over the place economic changes were taking place. Conditions were changing. Yet revolution did not come. Why? The vulgar and simplistic model of Marxist thought, that superstructure is a function and distorted reflection of the base, had to be mistaken. At some level, as Deleuze and Guattari, following Reich, put it, people must desire their own oppression. It is not enough to say that these structures were simply imposed on agents from without. Rather, at some level agents must desire these formations… These formations which Deleuze and Guattari refer to as “fascist”. Consequently, a critique of political economy is not enough. In addition to a critique of political economy, a critique of desire, a Critique of Pure Desire, must be written. Psychoanalysis provided these tools. Just as Marx carried out a critique of Ricardo, among others, by showing how value was not an intrinsic feature of things in themselves, but produced through labor. Freud and Lacan carried out a critique of prior psychology by formulating a desire divested of objects, a desire as such, a desire that wasn’t a function of need and instinct… A desire without an object, but as a process. Marx produced a non-representational theory of value. Freud and Lacan produced a non-representational theory of desire. Yet this critique had not gone far enough. It was still tainted by the empirical.

This desire was still tainted by certain privileged objects. Just as Kant had carried out a critique of the so-called proofs for the existence of God in the second half of the Critique of Pure Reason, it was thus necessary to carry out a Critique of Oedipal Reason. The Oedipus had been subtracted from the social sphere, treated as a private affair of the family, dehistoricized, de-sociologized, de-culturalized. But rather, the Oedipus reflected an entire metaphysics, a metaphysics extending far beyond the private. Far from being a natural and essential state-of-affairs, it already was the expression of a political metaphysics. This can be thought in fractal terms. A fractal is a pattern that iterates or repeats itself at all levels of scale.

Far from the family being the ground upon which all other social relations are based, what we have here is a fractal structure iterating itself at the level of the family, the level of social organizations (king or leader to subjects), and at the level of God in relation to his creature. If the death of God means anything, it means the destruction of this structure… Not simply at the level of content, but at the level of form as well. Freud, as Marx to Ricardo, had glimpsed this in his earlier work where libido no longer has an object. Lacan had explicitly formulated this in his claim that “the Oedipus is Freud’s myth“, and his attempt to think beyond the name-of-the-father as a central organizing principle in his later work. The problem arises as to how a politics might be possible in a post-Oedipal or post-onto-theological world.​

thanks for this quote. i found it useful. however, it seems to reiterate my original proposition that Capitalism is merely the latest convolution, a new conception, perhaps a radical one, terminal stage of the cancer even, of a pre-existing social paradigm of centralized power.

No, I'm doing the opposite: capitalism was not 'inevitable'. I'm arguing that capitalism is itself contingent, is dependent for its reproduction and perpetuation on primarily a social antagonism that is manifested in class division. This class division can be abolished; it is those who believe otherwise who are 'deifying capitalism.' You are deifying it by positing some unchanging, eternal force underlying all of history ("power over others" - patriarchy, a fixed symbolic order?). That is why your argument is ahistorical, because you invoke a limit to all historicisms. But patriarchy is also contingent, and, in fact, capitalism can and indeed does undermine and abolish it too.

but we do seem to be getting somewhere: i agree with you on the contingency of capitalism (and indeed the contingency of "civilization" and power -- see my previous rants on Anarcho-Primitivism), and had never argued otherwise. what i am saying though, is simply that it evolved out of earlier hierarchies, earlier models of centralized power.
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
One of the things I think is great about capitalism is that it allows the smart people (for creating smart people is the purpose of evolution) to succeed while the sub-humans (or "muties" as I call them) can be enslaved or just perish. That's why communism is basically evil, because it is against evolution, and trying to take a stand against capitalism and science is bound to fail, I mean, look at the muslims.

i hope you are being sarcastic. otherwise you take the cake far as indoctrinated brains go.

assuming the worst:

• your gross misinterpretation of half baked eugenic ideas based on Darwinian theory echos those of the nazis.

• these beliefs are traditionally held by the ruling class that the power they wield over the less fortunate is based on genetic superiority, and echos the "god given right to rule" of the monarchs.

while in reality, it is only the luck of being born into a wealthy family that separates them from those born into ghettos --- if anyone believes otherwise, i pity you.

• and the slew of ludicrously simple minded equations between "science" and "capitalism, short sighted to the point of imbecilic generalizations re: "communism" being "evil", and the reason for the "failure" of islam.

my head is reeling from just how truly fucked this little paragraph is, and how much truly fucked up shit it contains.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
Now, if AA/'William' was black, female, and working class... this derailed thread might have some chance of returning to its topic.

i guess a Chinese "creative professional" will have to do :) (sorry for being male)

With respect to race, gender and class, the question can be put like this: are race, gender and class a set of circumstances under which the game-theoretic subject finds his options skewed in various ways, or are they something that has happened to the subject (or, indeed, happened as the subject) before s/he even comes to consider his/her options?

of course it's both. as nomad said. we are born into this system, and it's difficult to imagine anything beyond or other than it.

The problem arises as to how a politics might be possible in a post-Oedipal or post-onto-theological world.

i would say we have to look at the PRE-oedipal, PRE-nuclear family, PRE-"civilized", PRE-onto-theological world for ideas. (again, see my previous rants on Anarcho-Primitivism)

and by the way that game theory stuff is entirely... besides? missing? the point to this conversation. (only good thing is it reminded me of these plums i bought last week sitting in the fruit bowl in my kitchen YUM :D)
 
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vimothy

yurp
Zhao -- Swears was being sarcastic.

Re capitalism as latest iteration of centralised power, capitalism displays something of a radical decentralisation (at least in comparison to its peers, and if perhaps only in a limited aspect) of power and decision making, and indeed, this is the most common complaint against it (though rarely in the same language) -- power is moved from the public, governmental sphere to private actors, and decisions arise from the interplay of those same dispersed actors in the marketplace. I mean, if you compare statism and free-market capitalism to arborescent and rhizomatic structures, which is which?
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
Zhao -- Swears was being sarcastic.

Re capitalism as latest iteration of centralised power, capitalism displays something of a radical decentralisation (at least in comparison to its peers, and if perhaps only in a limited aspect) of power and decision making, and indeed, this is the most common complaint against it (though rarely in the same language) -- power is moved from the public, governmental sphere to private actors, and decisions arise from the interplay of those dispersed same actors in the marketplace. I mean, if you compare statism and free-market capitalism to arborescent and rhizomatic structures, which is which?

i would rephrase this to say " capitalism APPEARS TO BE something of a radical decentralisation". for "free market" does not exist - a few still own the vast majority of production, and keep a monopoly on their assets passed down from generation to generation. veering dangerously close to conspiratorial territory, but in a country like America, i have no doubt that the same small group of people have always held all the real power. (yet another "meet the new boss, same as the old")

instead of "decentralized", i would say power has become internalized, and shifted to a state of "omnipresent invisibility" in the last century. much more insidious and difficult to fight than the iron fist of previous incarnations. like Zizek said he prefers the totalitarianism of yore to the new liberalism with its false sense of freedom -- which imprisons with exponential efficiency.

so no, Capitalism is NOT rhizomatic. it is perhaps, perhaps, in some ways, power's appropriation of the rhisomatic model...

and relieved that swears was being sarcastic. (again maybe we should adopt a "sarcastic color" for the board)
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
and relieved that swears was being sarcastic. (again maybe we should adopt a "sarcastic color" for the board)

I'd have thought the sarcasm was blatantly obvious, to be honest. So next time swears says something like "You know, maybe Hitler was onto something after all...", he's probably being sarcastic again.

One thing I'd like to ask is: why is a patriarchal/male-dominated society necessarily 'Oedipal'? I'd have thought such a society would have to be based on respecting the Father (whether of the state, the church, individual families or whatever), but Oedipus killed and usurped his father, didn't he? It's a usage that crops up here quite often, e.g in the 'high profile murders' thread that's active right now.
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
Is "rhizomatic" an intrinsically good way to be? So far as I can make out, the "arborescent" structure is a tree, and the "rhizomatic" structure is a graph. What's so special about this distinction, and why might one care whether capital organises itself arborescently or rhizomatically?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
A 'rhizome' is a kind of root, so etymologically 'rhizomatic' ought to mean something similar to 'radical'. Though I'm not sure about its use in a more conceptual sense.
 
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poetix

we murder to dissect
More specifically, an "arborescent" structure is a rooted tree, while a "rhizomatic" structure is a weighted directed graph.
 

vimothy

yurp
Are we only talking about capital? I mean social 'organisation' more generally. After D&G, an arborescent structure is top down, hierarchical, whereas a rhizomatic structure is horizontal, dispersed, decentralised. Yadda, yadda, yadda -- but it seems unarguable to me that 'capitalism' doesn't represent, even if only in particular spheres, a move away from centralised, 'arborscent' forms of organisation and towards decentralised, 'rhizomatic' ones.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
I'd have thought the sarcasm was blatantly obvious, to be honest. So next time swears says something like "You know, maybe Hitler was onto something after all...", he's probably being sarcastic again.

One thing I'd like to ask is: why is a patriarchal/male-dominated society necessarily 'Oedipal'? I'd have thought such a society would have to be based on respecting the Father (whether of the state, the church, individual families or whatever), but Oedipus killed and usurped his father, didn't he? It's a usage that crops up here quite often, e.g in the 'high profile murders' thread that's active right now.

leave your petty condescending tone for another thread Tea. the sentiments in Swears' comment (sarcasm in this instance) are all pervasive in society, and it is entirely possible to see them expressed here.

the Oedipal universe is engendered by the nuclear familial unit in a patriarchal setting because... well sons want to kill their domineering, oppressive fathers. to put it simply.

Is "rhizomatic" an intrinsically good way to be? So far as I can make out, the "arborescent" structure is a tree, and the "rhizomatic" structure is a graph. What's so special about this distinction, and why might one care whether capital organises itself arborescently or rhizomatically?

not necessarily a "good" way to be, but the rhizome horizontally propagates itself, is lawless, is multiplicity, is connectible to any other point, is fluid; and as such defies fixed order, hierarchy, and the power structures we are concerned with (dismantling).
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
the Oedipal universe is engendered by the nuclear familial unit in a patriarchal setting because... well sons want to kill their domineering, oppressive fathers. to put it simply.

Do they? Who says so? And what about daughters, what do they want?
 

swears

preppy-kei
i hope you are being sarcastic. otherwise you take the cake far as indoctrinated brains go.

assuming the worst:

• your gross misinterpretation of half baked eugenic ideas based on Darwinian theory echos those of the nazis.

• these beliefs are traditionally held by the ruling class that the power they wield over the less fortunate is based on genetic superiority, and echos the "god given right to rule" of the monarchs.

while in reality, it is only the luck of being born into a wealthy family that separates them from those born into ghettos --- if anyone believes otherwise, i pity you.

• and the slew of ludicrously simple minded equations between "science" and "capitalism, short sighted to the point of imbecilic generalizations re: "communism" being "evil", and the reason for the "failure" of islam.

my head is reeling from just how truly fucked this little paragraph is, and how much truly fucked up shit it contains.

freshwater-fly-fishing-b06.jpg
 

zhao

there are no accidents
yes you caught a nice big one. hope you are not offended as i sometimes can't keep up with who is a republican and who is a closet republican and who is an apologist and who is a sarcastic bastard...
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
the rhizome horizontally propagates itself, is lawless, is multiplicity, is connectible to any other point, is fluid; and as such defies fixed order, hierarchy, and the power structures we are concerned with (dismantling).

Oh, right. Like the IDF.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
More specifically, an "arborescent" structure is a rooted tree, while a "rhizomatic" structure is a weighted directed graph.

D'you mean a graph in the mathematical sense, i.e. a network of vertices connected by lines?
 
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