nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Really? I think that "I" is exactly what "we" need less of.
I'm all for complete ego dissolution personally.
Pretentious Crap
- Thread starter josef k.
- Start date
Really? I think that "I" is exactly what "we" need less of.
I'm all for complete ego dissolution personally.
There's a royal "we" used sometimes in philosophy which means something like "I, in the role of advocate for such-and-such a position". Others may hold the same position; perhaps if the advocacy is well done, the reader may end up holding it too. It's a hopeful "we", a "we" that means: "join us!"
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
No!! I was mostly talking about taking so much LSD (specifically) that the boundaries between you and the universe dissolve, and divesting of capitalism's sovereign individual-- greedily consuming and leaving a trail of toxic waste in his wake-- in favor of the collective good.
Shit, you're right.
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
What do you mean?
Because it seems you think I'm talking about "ego" as in "self-esteem", when I'm talking about "ego" as in "I am", its literal translation, and its psychoanalytical definition. I'm talking about the dissolution of the subject as an individual psychological entity as we currently understand them.
Of course, I'm not going to pretend I didn't notice that was some sort of unveiled insult. But once again, you prove less than perceptive.
I don't think I'm wonderful Josef. I don't even particularly like myself. In fact, I don't feel much like keeping on with it most of the time. But if it makes you feel better to think I'm an egotist, by all means, have it your way.
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Oh, of course.
Josef, have you ever considered seeing a psychotherapist?
I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I'm just curious. I really think you might benefit from therapy.
"There's a royal "we" used sometimes in philosophy which means something like "I, in the role of advocate for such-and-such a position". Others may hold the same position; perhaps if the advocacy is well done, the reader may end up holding it too. It's a hopeful "we", a "we" that means: "join us!""
We missionaries?
We missionaries?
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nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Can I correct a basic error I keep seeing basically everywhere but frequently online?
Ok, thanks. I will then.
Narcissism has little to do with actual self-love. Narcissists do not love themselves (at least, not who they really are). They are not simply adults who received too much praise or too many Christmas presents as children and therefore grew up with an unrealistically grand self-image.
Narcissists are deeply traumatized people. Most of them were excessively punished and/or abused by their parents or other authority figures. After being told or otherwise made to feel that they were bad or worthless, the narcissist suffered intense feelings of guilt, shame, and emotional pain that overwhelm him. As a result, the narcissist hates himself. To avoid further trauma, he creates a new self, a false self, one that he thinks is worthy of love and attention, and impervious to insult and pain, and projects that one to the world. The false self is not a pure fabrication, instead it is a partial view, usually made up only of the good things-- the accomplishments, the good qualities, the fun self, the tough self--usually one that the abuser couldn't find fault with or injure.
Of course, that's the clinical definition. There's also a sense in which the term is used where narcisissism is a general sort of bent toward creating false selves which are projected onto the world, and I agree with those who claim that the digital era encourages this sort of narcissism.
Ok, thanks. I will then.
Narcissism has little to do with actual self-love. Narcissists do not love themselves (at least, not who they really are). They are not simply adults who received too much praise or too many Christmas presents as children and therefore grew up with an unrealistically grand self-image.
Narcissists are deeply traumatized people. Most of them were excessively punished and/or abused by their parents or other authority figures. After being told or otherwise made to feel that they were bad or worthless, the narcissist suffered intense feelings of guilt, shame, and emotional pain that overwhelm him. As a result, the narcissist hates himself. To avoid further trauma, he creates a new self, a false self, one that he thinks is worthy of love and attention, and impervious to insult and pain, and projects that one to the world. The false self is not a pure fabrication, instead it is a partial view, usually made up only of the good things-- the accomplishments, the good qualities, the fun self, the tough self--usually one that the abuser couldn't find fault with or injure.
Of course, that's the clinical definition. There's also a sense in which the term is used where narcisissism is a general sort of bent toward creating false selves which are projected onto the world, and I agree with those who claim that the digital era encourages this sort of narcissism.
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
In other words, if you actually like who you are, you're definitely not a narcissist.
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
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Perhaps this should have its own thread?
I wonder what you make of these statements:
"But malignant narcissism is perverted self-love. In fact, it isn't really self-love. It's self-hatred. The person "suffering" from NPD hates himself and loves his IMAGE instead. He makes it look good the easy way — by making others' images look bad by comparison. That makes him a predator on the image of everyone around him. Everyone.
So, at bottom, the nature of the narcissist is the nature of a predator on his own kind. The importance of that fact cannot be overstated.
The brain of a predator just does not relate to the living soul of its prey. If you don't believe this, just watch PBS. Watch the behavior, and look into the eyes, of predatory animals while they're making a kill. There's nothing there. They are like machines at that moment. They must be, or they couldn't do it. In other words, Nature has equipped them with hard-wired circuitry in the brain that takes over the moment prey is sighted when they are hungry. It suppresses what we could observe in that animal only a minute earlier while it was playing with its siblings or a waving leaf on a twig, tenderly nuzzling its offspring or mate. Perhaps it was even grieving over the death of a member of the pack. But that's all gone the moment it sights prey while hungry. Then suddenly it's a killing machine.
It likes killing. Nature has endowed it with a taste for killing as necessary equipment for its survival. It even considers killing fun. Which is why we sometimes see in nature killing made sport: Chimpanzees (who don't eat meat) will gang-up on and attack a monkey, cruelly tearing it to pieces and having a blast over its heart-rending cries. Killer whales sometimes play with baby seals like a cat plays with a mouse. Wolves sometimes bring down and eviscerate prey they feed on the guts of until it dies and then walk away. Sorry, that's just the truth. Humans are animals too and have that same predatory mode. Nature endowed us with it as hunters. It's in everyone. But in narcissists and sociopaths something has gone haywire. They go into this mode against their own kind. And they are permanently in this mode against all their own kind.
Why? Because they don't view themselves as of our kind. They are of a superior kind. They think we are here to feed them, just as we think cattle are here to feed us. Correction: we do (or should) treat cattle humanely. We don't relate to them as objects like narcissists relate to us = like we relate to bugs or plants. Compared to us, narcissists are gods. Alien beings.
They can't help it. They are not to blame for feeling this way. Today the prognosis is poor. There is little sign of any real success in treating these people. Those who commit prosecutable offenses are repeat offenders — such as pedophile priests, sexual predators, and serial killers. They get this way as children and demonstrate it by torturing animals or murdering other children on a whim.
Though they can't control their temptations, they can control their conduct. And this is what competent psychiatric care might help them with. It can show them better ways to deal with their problems, making them resistant to temptation.
And a lion tamer can walk into the lions' den. But they are still wild animals, so he can never be sure they won't give in to the temptation to attack the prey tantalizing them beyond their power to resist.
We don't morally condemn those lions for being lions. And the only thing more stupid and useless than morally condemning narcissists for being narcissists is trusting them. Don't tempt them. Just because a pedophile priest has behaved for the last five years doesn't mean he won't finally lose it and eat another altar boy. Indeed, it's cruel to tempt him daily thus! You wouldn't wave a bottle of whiskey in front of an alcoholic, would you?
I don't see what's so difficult to understand about this. Talk therapy isn't the answer with PREDATORS. We must do whatever it takes to minimize or eliminate their access to vulnerable prey as targets of opportunity. Period. For ever. Let's get a clue already and stop dangling bait before their eyes.
There are many ways to do this: prison isn't the only one. For example, don't let him teach school or be a police officer. Don't give him power over his fellow employees. Don't elect him to be President for Life. Don't let him live off his parents until they die. Don't follow him on a purge to cleanse the Holy Land. And if he steps over the line whack him, so that he thinks twice before doing it again.
And, especially, let's stop passing this curse from generation to generation by subjecting children to narcissistic parents. It takes the consent of the non-narcissistic parent for that to happen. So, just because your mother or father put up with it doesn't mean you should.2
http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/important_stuff_narcissism.htm
I wonder what you make of these statements:
"But malignant narcissism is perverted self-love. In fact, it isn't really self-love. It's self-hatred. The person "suffering" from NPD hates himself and loves his IMAGE instead. He makes it look good the easy way — by making others' images look bad by comparison. That makes him a predator on the image of everyone around him. Everyone.
So, at bottom, the nature of the narcissist is the nature of a predator on his own kind. The importance of that fact cannot be overstated.
The brain of a predator just does not relate to the living soul of its prey. If you don't believe this, just watch PBS. Watch the behavior, and look into the eyes, of predatory animals while they're making a kill. There's nothing there. They are like machines at that moment. They must be, or they couldn't do it. In other words, Nature has equipped them with hard-wired circuitry in the brain that takes over the moment prey is sighted when they are hungry. It suppresses what we could observe in that animal only a minute earlier while it was playing with its siblings or a waving leaf on a twig, tenderly nuzzling its offspring or mate. Perhaps it was even grieving over the death of a member of the pack. But that's all gone the moment it sights prey while hungry. Then suddenly it's a killing machine.
It likes killing. Nature has endowed it with a taste for killing as necessary equipment for its survival. It even considers killing fun. Which is why we sometimes see in nature killing made sport: Chimpanzees (who don't eat meat) will gang-up on and attack a monkey, cruelly tearing it to pieces and having a blast over its heart-rending cries. Killer whales sometimes play with baby seals like a cat plays with a mouse. Wolves sometimes bring down and eviscerate prey they feed on the guts of until it dies and then walk away. Sorry, that's just the truth. Humans are animals too and have that same predatory mode. Nature endowed us with it as hunters. It's in everyone. But in narcissists and sociopaths something has gone haywire. They go into this mode against their own kind. And they are permanently in this mode against all their own kind.
Why? Because they don't view themselves as of our kind. They are of a superior kind. They think we are here to feed them, just as we think cattle are here to feed us. Correction: we do (or should) treat cattle humanely. We don't relate to them as objects like narcissists relate to us = like we relate to bugs or plants. Compared to us, narcissists are gods. Alien beings.
They can't help it. They are not to blame for feeling this way. Today the prognosis is poor. There is little sign of any real success in treating these people. Those who commit prosecutable offenses are repeat offenders — such as pedophile priests, sexual predators, and serial killers. They get this way as children and demonstrate it by torturing animals or murdering other children on a whim.
Though they can't control their temptations, they can control their conduct. And this is what competent psychiatric care might help them with. It can show them better ways to deal with their problems, making them resistant to temptation.
And a lion tamer can walk into the lions' den. But they are still wild animals, so he can never be sure they won't give in to the temptation to attack the prey tantalizing them beyond their power to resist.
We don't morally condemn those lions for being lions. And the only thing more stupid and useless than morally condemning narcissists for being narcissists is trusting them. Don't tempt them. Just because a pedophile priest has behaved for the last five years doesn't mean he won't finally lose it and eat another altar boy. Indeed, it's cruel to tempt him daily thus! You wouldn't wave a bottle of whiskey in front of an alcoholic, would you?
I don't see what's so difficult to understand about this. Talk therapy isn't the answer with PREDATORS. We must do whatever it takes to minimize or eliminate their access to vulnerable prey as targets of opportunity. Period. For ever. Let's get a clue already and stop dangling bait before their eyes.
There are many ways to do this: prison isn't the only one. For example, don't let him teach school or be a police officer. Don't give him power over his fellow employees. Don't elect him to be President for Life. Don't let him live off his parents until they die. Don't follow him on a purge to cleanse the Holy Land. And if he steps over the line whack him, so that he thinks twice before doing it again.
And, especially, let's stop passing this curse from generation to generation by subjecting children to narcissistic parents. It takes the consent of the non-narcissistic parent for that to happen. So, just because your mother or father put up with it doesn't mean you should.2
http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/important_stuff_narcissism.htm
Agent
dgaf ngaf cgaf
i guess this is pretentious but - quoting from a secondary source on Lacan's definition of narcissism: "Secondary narcissism is the more 'normal' form, where older children and adults seek personal gratification over the achievement of social goals and conformance to social values. A degree of narcissism is is common in many people. It becomes pathological when the narcissist lacks normal empathy and uses others ruthlessly to their own ends. Cerebral narcissists derive their self-adoration from their intellectual abilities and achievements. Somatic narcissists focus on the body, seeking beauty, physique and sexual conquests."
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
See, you can keep trying to zing me with this stuff about how I'm in love with myself, but it's not true, so it doesn't bother me. I'm not afraid of the truth, anyway, so even if it were true, it wouldn't bother me.
I have my problems and my character flaws. We all do. But I'm learning to work through mine. I've made some progress. Actually, I've made a lot of progress in some things. You really don't know me. If you did you'd know that.
So if you'd like to lay off the passive-aggression that would work best for me.
Then again, if you want to play that game, we can play that game. But I'll always win.
I have my problems and my character flaws. We all do. But I'm learning to work through mine. I've made some progress. Actually, I've made a lot of progress in some things. You really don't know me. If you did you'd know that.
So if you'd like to lay off the passive-aggression that would work best for me.
Then again, if you want to play that game, we can play that game. But I'll always win.
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
How dare you, Agent! Joe Sixpack is rolling over on the couch.
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Who wrote this? My guess is that this was not written by a professional in the field.
In general, I agree with the idea that the wrong personality types tend to be attracted to positions of power.
But not all pedophiles are narcissists. Also, there is a GIGANTIC difference between malignant narcissism, narcissism, and narcissistic personality disorder. There is also a gigantic difference between narcissism and sociopathy or psychopathy.
I do not have narcissistic personality disorder. I am not a malignant narcissist. I just have basic narcissistic tendencies, which is relatively common.
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Your description of narcissists:
"Narcissists are deeply traumatized people. Most of them were excessively punished and/or abused by their parents or other authority figures. After being told or otherwise made to feel that they were bad or worthless, the narcissist suffered intense feelings of guilt, shame, and emotional pain that overwhelm him. As a result, the narcissist hates himself. To avoid further trauma, he creates a new self, a false self, one that he thinks is worthy of love and attention, and impervious to insult and pain, and projects that one to the world. The false self is not a pure fabrication, instead it is a partial view, usually made up only of the good things-- the accomplishments, the good qualities, the fun self, the tough self--usually one that the abuser couldn't find fault with or injure."
Which you affirm in your own case, seems quite malignant, and out of the ordinary.
"Narcissists are deeply traumatized people. Most of them were excessively punished and/or abused by their parents or other authority figures. After being told or otherwise made to feel that they were bad or worthless, the narcissist suffered intense feelings of guilt, shame, and emotional pain that overwhelm him. As a result, the narcissist hates himself. To avoid further trauma, he creates a new self, a false self, one that he thinks is worthy of love and attention, and impervious to insult and pain, and projects that one to the world. The false self is not a pure fabrication, instead it is a partial view, usually made up only of the good things-- the accomplishments, the good qualities, the fun self, the tough self--usually one that the abuser couldn't find fault with or injure."
Which you affirm in your own case, seems quite malignant, and out of the ordinary.
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