Naomi Klein - The Shock Doctrine

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
(Maybe this should go in the A,L & F section - pls feel free to move if so)

I am reading this at the moment, and it is blowing my head off. For my money, Klein writes brilliantly and accessibly, and this book is a wonderfully concise introduction to the harsh economic doctrines being pushed by the West onto developing nations, from the Southern Cone through to Russia and South Africa.

Truly chilling stuff, and extremely radical for a relatively mainstream book.

What do others think (PS I've not yet read No Logo)?
 

vimothy

yurp
I've not read the book but her thesis is simplistic and wrong. I heard her get interviewed with Greenspan once and the depth of her ignorance was pretty staggering. There are take-downs of this all over the internet.

There was a post on Dani Rodrik's blog recently, about Klein's rather weird politics:

Some things are very hard to understand

For instance, how Naomi Klein was able to feel good about Argentina in 2002:

The only time she has ever felt a whiff of utopia was in Buenos Aires, in 2002, when the political system had virtually disintegrated—during the time that she and Lewis were filming “The Take.” “That moment in Argentina was an incredible time because a vacuum opened up,” she says. “They had thrown out four Presidents in two weeks, and they had no idea what to do. Every institution was in crisis. The politicians were hiding in their homes. When they came out, housewives attacked them with brooms. And, walking around Buenos Aires at night, there were meetings on every other street corner. Every plaza where there was a streetlight, people were meeting under it and talking about what to do about the external debt, I swear to God. Groups of one hundred or five hundred people. And organizing buying groceries together because they could get cheaper prices, setting up barters because the currency was worthless. It was the most inspiring thing I’ve ever seen.”

This is the same Argentina which had just collapsed into a severe economic crisis, with a more than doubling of the share of population in extreme poverty and a 10 percent decline in GDP. I wonder how many Argentines were feeling equally euphoric.

Economic collapse can be a good thing -- Can we call that "the other Shock Doctrine"?

EDIT: Sorry, don't mean to hate on your thread. All due respect. But I am extremely allergic to Ms Klein.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
No worries, I don't take it as hating. Interested to hear other people's views.

Thanks for that link - that is a VERY weird and wrong thing for Klein to have said, agreed (obviously).

I think, however, that there are many interesting things in that book, so will finish it and then look into some of the takedowns etc, as well as some of the books she references.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Also, am interested in why you think her thesis is wrong (I understand that it is over-simplistic in some cases). To me, it seems to contain the seeds of truth, even if she overstates the case sometimes to fit her thesis conveniently.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
I'm sorta in agreement with Vim, but haven't read either of her books, only some of her journalism (and reactions to it).

There's undoubtedly tons to be said about the extent to which the west and its favourite insititutions pushed neoliberal reforms on the world at large.

I just can't take her as a credible witness. Too simplistic.
 
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droid

Guest
I've not read the book... ...But I am extremely allergic to Ms Klein.

LOL. Klein is after all a leftist wing-nut and so can safely be ignored...

Baboon, without defending Klein, Id suggest that you take the criticism of those who have not even read (or skimmed!) her books with more than a pinch of salt (and with that in mind, how can the same people judge even the veracity of the 'takedowns'?).

As for this remarkably shallow criticism:

The only time she has ever felt a whiff of utopia was in Buenos Aires, in 2002, when the political system had virtually disintegrated—during the time that she and Lewis were filming “The Take.” “That moment in Argentina was an incredible time...

The response in the comments point out the obvious:

I think you have missed the point of her comments.

Klein was celebrating the fact that those people affected by the crisis took direct action to help themselves. They developed popular institutions and developed solidarity and mutual aid in the process.

They started to create something better than the system which caused economic collapse.

Which is her point.

Presumably, what the Argentine people should have done was simply have passively waited until their government acted and meekly accepted whatever costs the ruling elite decided was required to get neo-liberalism going again?

I fail to see that would have been a good thing to do. Perhaps you could explain why it would have been?

So, please, it is obvious that Klein is NOT celebrating the economic crisis. She is celebrating the popular response to that crisis.

A reasonable enough summation of the theses of the Shock Doctrine:

The central thesis of the book is that capitalism and democracy, free markets and free people, do not, as we’ve been told, go hand in hand. On the contrary, capitalism—at least fundamentalist capitalism, of the type promoted by the late economist Milton Friedman and his “Chicago School” acolytes—is so unpopular, and so obviously harmful to everyone except the richest of the rich, that its establishment requires, at best, trickery and, at worst, terror and torture. Friedman believed that markets perform best when freed from government interference, so he advocated getting rid of tariffs, subsidies, minimum-wage laws, public housing, Social Security, financial regulation, and licensing requirements, including those for doctors—indeed, virtually every measure devised to protect people from the market’s harsh logic. Klein argues that the only circumstance in which a population would accept Friedman-style reforms is when it is in a state of shock, following a crisis of some sort—a natural disaster, a terrorist attack, a war. A person in shock regresses to a childlike state in which he longs for a parental figure to take control; similarly, a population in a state of shock will hand exceptional powers to its leaders, permitting them to destroy the regulatory functions of government.
 
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droid

Guest
Yes, but not the book you condemn as 'simplistic and wrong' as a result of reading other peoples criticisms. You didnt even skim it before you decided it wasnt worth reading for gods sake!
 

vimothy

yurp
I don't have the time to read every book before deciding if it's worth reading. But based on your summary, I'd still say her thesis is simplistic and wrong.
 
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droid

Guest
I don't have the time to read every book before deciding if it's worth reading. But based on your summary, I'd still say her thesis is simplistic and wrong.

That summary was from the article you linked to - which it seems you didnt even bother skimming...
 

vimothy

yurp
I guess you must mean the article Rodrik links to, which I did read, but not recently, not that it's really relevant. You called it reasonable -- if you have a summary in which Klein's work does not appear to be simplistic and wrong, please post it.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
As I said, I'm basing my opinion on her journalism (some of which I have read). But there's a good (in so far as I can tell obv.) slating of it here from the liberal left
Naomi Klein is confused. She has written a tough attack on capitalism's capacity to insist that public policy be run wholly in its own interests and its conspiratorial capacity to capitalise on all forms of disaster and social distress to get its way. Fine. 'Disaster capitalism' is an insightful way of looking at how the free marketeers have spread the gospel. Sometimes you cheer her on, but nowhere does she concede that markets can have good results as well as bad. Nowhere does she explore what those circumstances may be and why economic freedom is so appealing to so many. And nowhere does she set out an alternative manifesto for running economies and societies.

In her delusional, Manichaean world view, privatisation, free markets, private property, consumer freedom, the profit motive and economic freedom are just other terms for corporate self-enrichment, denial of voice, limitation of citizenship, inequality and, sometimes, even torture. The discredited electro-shock psychological treatment of the Fifties, we learn, informed the thought system of the free marketeers; it is guilt by association and assertion rather than proof, a weaknesses of too much of the book.

Nothing good can ever come from globalisation, which is just more capitalism. Democracy, however, is a halcyon world of political and economic co-operation, citizen voice and engagement, with a freely arrived- at assertion of the common interest in which most think along the same lines as, say, Naomi Klein. She and free-market economist Milton Friedman, whom she has in her sights, are mirror images of each other in the absolutist categories in which they think.

.....

So The Shock Doctrine is a lost opportunity. It is hardly new that disasters and shocks are often triggers of change; her insight is to apply the thesis to turbo-capitalism and its ideologues. If Klein had been fairer, she would have had a smarter thesis that could genuinely have changed the intellectual climate. As it is, she will be dismissed by her critics as a confused ranter. We need critics of free-market fundamentalism to do better than that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2007/sep/23/society.politics

and a favourable one from the voice of the pessimistic right (who slots it very neatly into his own theories)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2007/sep/15/politics
 
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droid

Guest
I guess you must mean the article Rodrik links to, which I did read, but not recently, not that it's really relevant. You called it reasonable -- if you have a summary in which Klein's work does not appear to be simplistic and wrong, please post it.

Ha.. well I was baiting you there a bit I admit. but Im afraid the onus is on you to prove her thesis 'simplistic and wrong' (but of course youd really have to read the book to do this).

You have asserted this is a fact with absolutely no evidence to back it up and you are now asking for me to disprove your assertion, a pretty ridiculous position really...
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
Ha.. well I was baiting you there a bit I admit. but Im afraid the onus is on you to prove her thesis 'simplistic and wrong' (but of course youd really have to read the book to do this).

You have asserted this is a fact with absolutely no evidence to back it up and you are now asking for me to disprove your assertion, a pretty ridiculous position really...

Since 'simplistic and wrong' are subjective terms when apllied to a political theory (even to someone as simplistic and wrong as Naomi Klein) Vim's statement is opinion, not fact.
 
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droid

Guest
Well obv - but not to get into semantic nit picking, but I didnt say it was a 'fact' I said that he has asserted it is a fact, which recognises it is his opinion, but also recognises that he seems to think it is a fact as he is asking me to disprove it - which is him essentially asking me to disprove his unargued opinion.

Look. Klein wasnt paid by a think tank to write this book and she doesnt work for a vested interest, so all Im really saying here is that you should read the book prior to dismissing it out of hand. Is that such a radical position?
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
Look. Klein wasnt paid by a think tank to write this book and she doesnt work for a vested interest, so all Im really saying here is that you should read the book prior to dismissing it out of hand. Is that such a radical position?

In theory that's fine.

But the problem for me is that Klein (like Chomsky, like the blogger Lenin, whose book got a similar pounding recently from someone who might have been broadly symapthetic to a more nuanced version of the same argument) comes from such an inflexible starting point that she might as well be paid by a think tank.

'the west' and its little helpers are an unremitting source of all that is wrong - facts are simply pieces of the jigsaw to be put into that framework, nowhere else. But that's just my subjective opinion, obviously.
 
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droid

Guest
"'the west' and its little helpers are an unremitting source of all that is wrong - facts are simply pieces of the jigsaw to be put into that framework."

But again - this opinion is based on what exactly? Have you actually read Chomsky (its a gross distortion in his case) or Klein or Seymour - or just their critics?
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
"'the west' and its little helpers are an unremitting source of all that is wrong - facts are simply pieces of the jigsaw to be put into that framework."

But again - this opinion is based on what exactly? Have you actually read Chomsky (its a gross distortion in his case) or Klein or Seymour - or just their critics?

bit of both
 

vimothy

yurp
droid is just trying to keep a space open for the possibility that Klein might be right. He doesn't want to actually defend her ideas. But I think we can say some things without reading it: for starters, populating a dataset with cases sampled on the dependent variable is methodologically suspect.
 
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