Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 31

Thread: End of European Civilization

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    brooklyn
    Posts
    1,273

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by johneffay
    and muslims have been arriving for ages.
    yes, but at a certain point quantitative change becomes qualitative

    compare the levels of muslim immigrants that europe will likely absorb in next twenty years with the muslim population in european countries in, say, 1950 -- and you'll have to agree the change drastic and remarkable
    Last edited by dominic; 03-03-2005 at 05:09 PM.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    brooklyn
    Posts
    1,273

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by henrymiller
    the concepts of 'rising' and 'falling' are very clumsy metaphors here. in what sense is china 'rising'? for the vast majority of its citizens, china is not 'rising'; possibly this was true during the pioneer phase of american industrial capitalism (?1870-1910?), but politically china is more closed than america ever was. i don't think europe is 'falling' in meaningful terms; only if you accept great power logic does it look 'weak'.
    they are perhaps clumsy metaphors, but the terms capture:

    (1) the ability of a state to project financial, economic & military power

    (2) the perception of other states and the people of the world at large of which states and societies have the most power, and which states are therefore, in practice, largely deferred to

    (3) the dynamics of change as one state replaces another state in this position of power

    ALSO, k-punk made a couple of good points that can only be understood if one accepts the rising/falling metaphor:

    (1) for america it is *unthinkable* that its fortunes are on the brink of serious decline, i.e., u.s. thinks of itself as the exceptional nation -- a thought shared across the u.s. political spectrum -- we're "the land of opportunity," the nation of immigrants, where the cream supposedly rises, where everybody works harder & longer at their jobs to get ahead, etc, etc -- and so for america it will be a great trauma as it sees its world standing and power eclipsed by china's, then by india's, etc -- the promise of america would no longer be a promise but a memory

    (2) and if america's in decline, then who's going to replace it -- that is, if you accept that american financial institutions largely dictate terms to the 3rd world, or that its "lean and mean" economic practices have undermined the viability of the european welfare state, then who's going to dictate terms to america if its financial situation goes haywire? -- surely the chinese & the japanese, as they hold all the dollars

    and simply in terms of sheer economic heft, sheer value of the products & services that a country produces, china is set to surpass america within next 20 years ------ assuming of course that impending energy crisis does not derail the entire "economics of perpetual growth" paradigm

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    brooklyn
    Posts
    1,273

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by henrymiller
    i don't think he means 'culture' as in 'culture section', dom.
    then he presumably means the economics of "creative destruction"???

    perhaps k-punk could clarify his meaning?

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    brooklyn
    Posts
    1,273

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by henrymiller
    i don't think europe is 'falling' in meaningful terms; only if you accept great power logic does it look 'weak'.
    don't you mean in terms of the daily life of most europeans, as opposed to the ability of european states to project power?

    american anxieties are different, however

    (1) many americans believe that europe continues to fare well under the world system b/c america dominates that system and is solicitous of europe -- but that once the system passes into the hands of the asian states, then there will be reason for fear ----- that is, there is a "loyalty or love for one's own" that thoroughly undergirds the american way of thinking, or at the very least an unquestioned belief that it iis better to have "one's own" in charge, that it is preferable to be exploited/ruled by the american/european ruling classes than by east asian ruling classes

    - of course what has made america so powerful is its combination of military and economic power
    - even if china surpasses america economically, america will remain a formidable power militarily (though sino-japanese alliance would combine chinese economic power w/ japanese technical ingenuity, such that in 50 years' time they could truly dictate terms to america, in some future scenario) (and, moreover, economic power is the ultimate condition of military power, so if america declines economically its military power will wither accordingly)

    (2) americans fear retribution for the american state's thoughtless deployment of lethal technologies against other peoples

    but this all perhaps a dark fantasy, the obverse of america's fantasy of being the perpetual global hegemon

    in truth, america probably has enough institutional and structural integrity to remain reasonably independent and no more or less self-determining than other states & peoples under the conditions of the global capitalist economy . . . . so in this sense, the eclipse of american power followed by america's retreat into a more modest stance vis-a-vis the rest of the world would probably be the best thing that could ever happen for most americans, i.e., they'd get over their fantasies of power and exceptionalism, get over their infantile ignorance, and reach a necessary accomodation with the new world order

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    brooklyn
    Posts
    1,273

    Default

    and to state the obvious -- "love of one's own" and "hostility to (or fear of ) others" is at the root of western anxiety concerning the demographic crisis

    the anxiety is this -- as western countries come to rely on immigrant workers to sustain their wealth and social security programs, then native-born citizens who have reached the age of retirement will effectively depend upon the charity of immigrants

    "love of one's own" may be irrational, but it is certainly natural, the political passion par excellence

    all of this relates, tangentially, to k-punk's posts on his website concerning the unquestioned wisdom of having mothers take leave from work to care for their own young children, as opposed to having state-run daycare centers

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    663

    Default

    the thing that makes this especially funny is that Mark Steyn is Canadian.

    I wrote about this article here.

    I've also written pretty extensively about immigration and Europe and multiculturalism, if anyone's interested here are the links:
    http://onepearsallandhisbooks.blogsp...and-about.html
    http://onepearsallandhisbooks.blogsp...-concepts.html
    http://onepearsallandhisbooks.blogsp...nd-modern.html
    http://onepearsallandhisbooks.blogsp...tegration.html

    I've also got a new post that I've been sitting on for a bit, which I really should get around to finishing (it's already at 1500 words).

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    15,994

    Default

    hey pearall i've just been reading yr books blog. i was suprised how interesting i found it. i really like it.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    663

    Default

    thanks!

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    brooklyn
    Posts
    1,273

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by johneffay
    Not spent much time in Europe have you Dominic? Many European countries have absorbed diverse immigrants within the period of modern history and muslims have been arriving for ages.
    i followed up some of the links that pearsall posted --

    like this: http://www.livejournal.com/users/rfm...05.html#cutid1 (which states, among other things, that France since the end of the Second Empire has absorbed proportionally as many immigrants as has the U.S. -- not sure if I believe that!)

    and also this: http://www.livejournal.com/users/rfmcdpei/408410.html

    in any case, whatever the reality of immigration in modern Europe, there's still the issue of popular perceptions and national concepts -- on which point pearsall's observations of the european mindset are consistent with my own

    but yes, it would appear that i've been somewhat ignorant of the true extent of immigration in modern European countries

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    84

    Default

    that is, i think that muslim immigrants to america are much happier & feel more accepted than their counterparts in europe (despite the extra-legal excesses of the Bush administration in relation to the "terrorism" threat) -- i.e., muslim immigrants do very well in america

    Just thought I'd pull this statement apart. There are comparatively few Muslims in the US - 1m or <0.5% of the population according to the most recent census. I don't know the breakdowns but I imagine this a mix of South Asians, Arabs, Turks, Persians, Malays, etc. There are more Amerindians in the US than Muslims.

    Are they happier in the US? Maybe - but who cares?

    Muslim populations for UK, France & Germany:
    UK - 2.7% (largely from South Asia: Pakistan/Bangladesh/India)
    France - 6% (largely Algerian)
    Germany - 3.2% (largely from Turkey)

    And the comments on their origin is quite important. Religion is a marker for ethnicity in UK, Germany, & France. But they're different ethnicities. Is a pan-European Islamic League likely? I dunno, apart from their religion - do Bangladeshis, Turks and Algerians have much in common? And is religion enough to hold them together?

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    84

    Default

    Hang on - Pearsall has already said all this and much more (much better) on his blog.

    Go read.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    brooklyn
    Posts
    1,273

    Default

    Are people on Dissensus familiar with Emmanuel Todd's book "After the Empire: The Breakdown of the American Order"?

    -- I'm waiting for it to come out in paperback over here, but the reviews I've read of the book make it seem like a must-read . . . .

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    15,994

    Default

    k-punk got his economic crash prediction right.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    15,994

    Default

    craner is more invested in the 'eurabia' thesis than ever of course. sufi cant wait for it to actually happen.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    15,994

    Default

    berber-camel-driver_original.jpg

    we'll all be wearing one of these with a tracksuit and hurraches.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to luka For This Useful Post:


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •