luka

Well-known member
a thousand plateau's reminded me of naked lunch

they hero worship Burroughs dont they. it's dealing with the same level of experience for sure.
and there is the same thing of what you thought was meant as a metaphor starts to seem literal description
and vice versa (in the way that eyes wide shut does i mean. which level of reality is more 'real'?). it's all the same very involved visionary trippy level of vision. poetry's traditional territory
 
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vimothy

yurp
also the jazz aspect. its not organised into a single narrative, its a set of different improvisations that each have their own theme.
 

luka

Well-known member
i never needed these lot exactly cos all the same ideas are all over literature and expressed sort of more elegantly
but i appreciate them now.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
which is a relief cos you dont feel obliged to read from start to finish. can dip in. i like books like that.
with reference to the groupname for grapejuice essay i just found this
https://egressac.wordpress.com/2004/08/02/dgatphpl-hyperstition/
all lovecraft references in ATP collated by Mark K Punk.

See now, you said to me not long ago that you didn't get on with Cyclonopedia and that Negarestani was a "bullshitter", but all this stuff seems much of a muchness to me. On what basis do you make that distinction? What is it D&G that makes it authentic, or the real deal, or whatever you take to be non-bullshit?
 

luka

Well-known member
they hero worship Burroughs dont they. it's dealing with the same level of experience for sure.
and there is the same thing of what you thought was meant as a metaphor starts to seem literal description
and vice versa (in the way that eyes wide shut does i mean. which level of reality is more 'real'?). it's all the same very involved visionary trippy level of vision. poetry's traditional territory

this tricky metaphor morphing is key i think. Mark knew about it
Burroughs' Spinozistic abstract model of addiction - i.e., very much NOT a metaphor, what could be more literal? - describes humanity's enslavement to a vast emiserating machine whose interests are not its.
 

luka

Well-known member
See now, you said to me not long ago that you didn't get on with Cyclonopedia and that Negarestani was a "bullshitter", but all this stuff seems much of a muchness to me. On what basis do you make that distinction? What is it D&G that makes it authentic, or the real deal, or whatever you take to be non-bullshit?

it's not an easy question to answer. what kinds of pleasures do you get from 'this stuff'? what do you take from it? so i can get a sense of what angle of approach youre on
 

luka

Well-known member
more kpunks

But let's dispense with one of the lazy, hazy assumptions we're all prone to fall into whenever we hear the word 'cybernetics'. Cybernetics does not only refer to technical machines. Wiener call it the study of control and communication in animals and machines (btw: why leave out plants?). Its principal discovery is 'feedback' - a system's capacity to reflect and act upon its own performance. So, as Luke and I were discussing the other day, the whole point of cybernetics is that nothing is 'more cybernetic' than anything else. There are only systems with more or less feedback, and diffferent types of feedback (k+, k-, k0.) So if the word 'cybernetics' calls up only gleaming steel you have the wrong association.

If cyborgianism is oriented towards a maintenance and reproduction of the organism and its homeostatic control circuitries, Cyberpunk or k-punk (one of the motivations for the 'k' btw is the origin of the word 'cyber' in the Greek 'kuber') flees towards a cybernetics of organic disassembly. Again, let's be clear here. You don't disassemble the human organism by replacing its parts with metal or silicon components. (That's why the term 'cyborg' - or 'cybernetic organism' is misleadingly redundant. All organisms are already cybernetic). What matters is the overall organization of the parts. Do the parts operate as hierarchically organized and functionally-specified 'organs' within a cybernegatively construed interiority or do they operate as deterritorialized potentials pulling from/ towards the Outside?
 

luka

Well-known member
Me

2:04 PM (2 minutes ago)

to jim
heidegger is a trip guide, d&g is a trip guide, burroughs is a trip guide, nietzsche is a trip guide, rimbaud is a trip guide


2:05 PM (2 minutes ago)

to jim
quetions of how best to orientate oneself in trip-space


2:05 PM (1 minute ago)

to me
Baudelaire is a trip guide,

Walter Benjamin is a record collector

Lovecraft is a chronic masturbator

:crylarf::crylarf::crylarf:
 

luka

Well-known member
I think you need a sex drive to be any kind of masturbator!

Jim (author of joke above)highly recommends those Aickman books You told you to read btw. He lent me one last year but i havent got round to looking at it.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Jim (author of joke above)highly recommends those Aickman books You told you to read btw. He lent me one last year but i havent got round to looking at it.

I will look into them. Always need more stuff to read.

About what really grabbed me about Cyclonopedia: I think the best way I can put this is to repeat more or less what I wrote years ago in the thread about that book. That it's a bit like being yelled at by a madman, except when you start to listen to his rantings you are gradually overcome with the horrible feeling that there's a consistency, perhaps even a plausibility, to what he's saying, and that maybe he only *seems* mad because he's actually the one sane man in the world - the one who's figured it all out. Which surely must appeal to you with your interest in conspiracy theories, on the basis that the crazier and more out-there the "theory" (hypothesis, fantasy, delusion...), the more convinced its adherents are that they are the 'woke' ones and that the rest of us are hopelessly ensnared in the Matrix.

Within the wider context of D&G and the kind of writing they've helped to inspire, I still don't get why you would consider one exponent of it 'real' or whatever and the other a bullshitter. Isn't this style of discourse all about being 'playful' and 'subversive' and all of those things that make a bit of a mockery of the idea of authentic or rigorous thought?
 

luka

Well-known member
like i was saying i see them as trip guides (life is a trip man) and im not sure how i would use reza as a trip guide.
always struck me as a nice and patient man though.
 

luka

Well-known member
ive been reading a lot of old kpunk and hyperstition and land and ccru over the last few weeks.
 

luka

Well-known member
so its not about thinking at all in a sense. this is where im coming from when i say im against thinking.
its not thinking so much as observation and note taking. whats happening? interrogating the experience
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
so its not about thinking at all in a sense. this is where im coming from when i say im against thinking.
its not thinking so much as observation and note taking. whats happening? interrogating the experience

This sounds quite Buddhistic actually.
 

luka

Well-known member
youd love it. its great.
all the ccru stuff is youd like and the bataille book is written in the style
of a 19th century parisian fop/decadent/proto-goth
 
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