What is Manga?

empty mirror

remember the jackalope
Running Man by Kajiwara, part of Neo Tokyo compilation from around '96 -'97,
aired on Liquid TV , that old MTV show that also has Aeon Flux.
Unrelated to King's The Running Man.
Racing till death as ghosts of races past come back to haunt a race driver ...
^ yes! i remember that! INTENSE!
 

zhao

there are no accidents
i don't think any fans of Gaiman's Sandman has business calling anything else "teen", especially in a negative way. because Sandman is as "teen" as you get, for any genre. i was a huge fan myself, really loved all the stories -- between the ages 15-17. tried reading an issue recently for nostalgia sake and it was corny as hell.

my favorite manga right now is Witches, recommended by droid. fresh story telling, beautiful art, non-linearity, un-cheesy supernatural themes connecting unlikely subjects, forming fragile and exquisite little stories... intelligent, sensitive, beautiful, and powerful. wish there was more, but i can imgaine audience for it might not be very big?

what do people think about the "spiritual horror" mangas like the Spiral? how was the film i didn't see it?
 
D

droid

Guest
what do people think about the "spiritual horror" mangas like the Spiral? how was the film i didn't see it?

The Uzumaki film was OK actually. The Tomie film less so. All of Ito's maga are brilliant, he's second only to Hideshi Hino in the horror manga stakes. Kazou Uzemi is a bit too old skool, though 'drifting classroom' had its own existential despair thing going on - also 'Parasyte' which is being republished at the mo is worth a look.

PHOTO_2510555_24930_2140108_main.jpg
 

empty mirror

remember the jackalope
i don't think any fans of Gaiman's Sandman has business calling anything else "teen", especially in a negative way. because Sandman is as "teen" as you get, for any genre. i was a huge fan myself, really loved all the stories -- between the ages 15-17. tried reading an issue recently for nostalgia sake and it was corny as hell.

what do people think about the "spiritual horror" mangas like the Spiral? how was the film i didn't see it?

same wrt sandman. loved them at that age; kinda scared to revisit the stories though.

as far as horror manga, i've only really read Juni Ito's Tomie. creepy and weird. the atmosphere does stick with you for a bit.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
back to original question:

the Japnese word "Manga" comes from the Chinese word "Man Hua", the literal translation of which is "Funny Pictures". both Chinese original and Japanese derivative are written the same way: 漫画

the history of graphic art in the form of prints which use pictures and text to tell stories is an ancient one in China, much older than Japanese history of the same. here is an early 17th century example.

for various reasons the lineage of contemporary Japanese comics having come from Ancient Chinese forms is not often traced, and you will not easily find articles on the subject, but make no mistake: of COURSE Manga is a derivative of Chinese popular graphic arts.

much like the roots of Hello kitty can be found in folk art in China, which often features exaggeratedly cute depictions of children and animals.
 
D

droid

Guest
back to original question:

the Japnese word "Manga" comes from the Chinese word "Man Hua", the literal translation of which is "Funny Pictures". both Chinese original and Japanese derivative are written the same way: 漫画

the history of graphic art in the form of prints which use pictures and text to tell stories is an ancient one in China, much older than Japanese history of the same. here is an early 17th century example.

for various reasons the lineage of contemporary Japanese comics having come from Ancient Chinese forms is not often traced, and you will not easily find articles on the subject, but make no mistake: of COURSE Manga is a derivative of Chinese popular graphic arts.

much like the roots of Hello kitty can be found in folk art in China, which often features exaggeratedly cute depictions of children and animals.

Not to debate the influence of China on Japanese culture, but as I understand it, modern manhua and manga are pretty much contemporary, dating from about the mid-19th century, and narrative Japanese woodblocks date back to the 11th century.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
much like the roots of Hello kitty can be found in folk art in China, which often features exaggeratedly cute depictions of children and animals.

So Hello Kitty can ultimately be blamed on China? I think Japan just went up a notch in my estimation. :D

Also, this.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
narrative Japanese woodblocks date back to the 11th century.

whether Manga is a Japanese invention or not is beside the point, and a question which borders on irrelevancy.

for you see classical Japanese art is nothing but an imitation of classical Chinese art; the Japanese Language is a linguistic derivative of the Chinese language; and Japanese classical poetry and literature and religion and philosophy are all directly borrowed from China.

so can the Japanese putting Chinese pictures and Chinese words together be called any kind of "invention"?

but regardless of what your answer to that uestion may be, almost all ancient Chinese painting include poetry or narrative in the form of calligraphy, using a combination of images and text to create the final experience.
 
D

droid

Guest
whether Manga is a Japanese invention or not is beside the point, and a question which borders on irrelevancy.

for you see classical Japanese art is nothing but an imitation of classical Chinese art; the Japanese Language is a linguistic derivative of the Chinese language; and Japanese classical poetry and literature and religion and philosophy are all directly borrowed from China.

So what? This is akin to saying that American culture is nothing but an imitation of European art. It's cultural chauvinism

There have been significant independent developments in art and culture in Japan over the last 2000 years or so. That's not to deny the huge influence China has had of course.

Manga in it's modern form is a quintessentially Japanese creation, which is why the contemporary Manhua (Manhwa in Korea) industries all started by translating Japanese comics and then creating their own in the same style.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
So what? This is akin to saying that American culture is nothing but an imitation of European art. It's cultural chauvinism.

it is not akin to saying that at all.

how ever, saying "classical japanese art is an imitation of classical chinese art" is akin to saying early American art being entirely derivative of European traditions. (American art lacked identity before Ab Ex. we all know that)

it is akin to saying 60s british rock'n'roll was largely an imitation of american popular music.

it is akin to saying that while there are amazing practitioners of jazz in Europe who have been responsible for many innovations, the style itself, jazz music itself, still remain an artform which come from the American underclass of early 20th century.

it is not cultural chauvinism. it is truth.
 
D

droid

Guest
it is not akin to saying that at all.

how ever, saying "classical japanese art is an imitation of classical chinese art" is akin to saying early American art being entirely derivative of European traditions. (American art lacked identity before Ab Ex. we all know that)

it is akin to saying 60s british rock'n'roll was largely an imitation of american popular music.

it is akin to saying that while there are amazing practitioners of jazz in Europe who have been responsible for many innovations, the style itself, jazz music itself, still remain an artform which come from the American underclass of early 20th century.

it is not cultural chauvinism. it is truth.

Forgive me for being presumptuous, but what you basically said in your previous post is that Japan created 'nothing'. All Japanese culture came from China.

Its an absurd reduction.

Even the examples you quote above - all of those 'imitations' went on to develop into original and self contained artforms. The Japanese have had centuries of independent development of culture, art they have created art and culture that can be said to be 'something'. Denial of this is cultural chauvinism. Just as a snobbish European might dismiss all American culture as a bastardised imitation of his own.

Modern manga is a perfect example actually. Essentially a Japanese invention that is now the culturally dominant form all over Asia. If anything, you could point to the US as being more of an influence than China.

Unless of course you want to go down the blind alley of 'authenticity' again.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
please read what i said again droid.

classical Japanese art is nothing but an imitation of classical Chinese art

what i am pointing out is the source of "foundations", not denying later day innovations based upon those foundations.

American English is a variation of British English, and in 2000 years the differences between the 2 might become as big as those between Japanse and Chinese. i hope no one will get "which came first" wrong.
 
D

droid

Guest
But everyone knows that the Japanese people, language and culture came from China originally. The only people who deny it or downplay it are Japanese nationalists.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
nah it is downplayed a lot more often than you think.

much like a hell of a lot less people know about the massive influence of Egypt on Greece than you think.
 
D

droid

Guest
nah it is downplayed a lot more often than you think.

much like a hell of a lot less people know about the massive influence of Egypt on Greece than you think.

Dear god Zhao, cop yourself on - and then produce a scintilla of credible evidence to back up your claims.
 
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