How dodgy is soy?

Everything tampers with everything else, it's called ecology.

I'm not so much sceptical of the distinction as totally hostile to it, to be honest. I think the idea that humans are separate and apart from nature is a root cause of so much of the environmental trouble we find ourselves in today. As far as drinking milk as adults goes - well yeah, it's "unnatural" in the sense that other animals don't do it. But humans do all sorts of things other animals don't do. I'm sure as hell not going to refuse life-saving drugs if I ever get really ill because they're "unnatural", and I suspect you wouldn't either.

Edit: but dairy is an extremely good source of certain nutrients. It's not hard to see the evolutionary advantage of drinking a litre of milk (say) to get the same amount of calcium you'd get from eating god knows how many cabbages or whatever, right?

I guess I can see four good reasons for not consuming dairy products: 1) you're morally opposed to keeping animals for meat or any other by-products like milk, 2) you're allergic or to some degree metabolically intolerant, 3) you're worried about consuming drugs and hormones that have been administered to the cows, and organic milk/cheese isn't available in your area or is prohibitively expensive, or 4) you just don't like the stuff. Clearly at least one of those applies to you, so you avoid it as a food group. Fine, no problem there, I mean what's it got to do with me anyway?

But arguments about it being "unnatural" are totally misguided as far as I can see - just an irrational prejudice.

massrock said:

Mercury is natural. Mmm, lovely mercury.

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My point entirely. 'Natural' does not equal 'good' or 'healthy'.

massrock said:

Maybe unnatural is not the right word. Unsuitable? Inappropriate? Inadvisable? Incompatible?

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But for what reason is it any of those things? I drink milk every day (in tea, mind you, I'm not guzzling pints of the stuff) and I haven't grown an extra head yet. As I said above, your personal metabolism might make it unhealthy for you to drink milk, or your personal moral values might make it unacceptable to you to consume any animal products. But to say it's "inadvisable" or "inappropriate" to drink milk is to make a universal statement that it's a Bad Idea, for you or for anyone.

This conversation is kind of silly about milk. Other species might not drink milk from other animals, but that's because they don't have opposable thumbs so they can't milk them. Otherwise, they have no problem eating the entire fellow animal raw, blood, guts, entrails, and all...

Mr. Tea said:

Everything tampers with everything else, it's called ecology.

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well, that's simply fascinating! what is this "ecology" you speak of?

no offense but you can f**k right off w/that patronizing shite, mate.

Mr. Tea said:

I think the idea that humans are separate and apart from nature is a root cause of so much of the environmental trouble we find ourselves in today.

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I dunno what you're on about here. I believe exactly the opposite, as does nearly everyone I know who cares about this stuff. that is, in fact, the entire point. humans are much better off accumulating themselves to their environment than they are trying to subvert it to their will. a classic example would be the suppression of forest fires.

Mr. Tea said:

But humans do all sorts of things other animals don't do. I'm sure as hell not going to refuse life-saving drugs if I ever get really ill because they're "unnatural", and I suspect you wouldn't either.

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that is a ridiculous strawman, akin to the ticking time-bomb of torture apologists. if my life depended on me drinking milk of course I'd do it. but it doesn't, obviously. & even if I did that still wouldn't mean I thought drinking milk by choice was a good idea.

Mr. Tea said:

Edit: but dairy is an extremely good source of certain nutrients. It's not hard to see the evolutionary advantage of drinking a litre of milk (say) to get the same amount of calcium you'd get from eating god knows how many cabbages or whatever, right?

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I didn't say it wasn't rich in certain nutrients, I said there was nothing in dairy that can't be found elsewhere. & w/o too much trouble I might add - spinach, broccoli. kale, various seaweeds, all excellent sources of calcium. almonds as well. loads of others. not so much cabbage, unfortunately. it's too bad, that comment was ever so witty.

it seems to me your offhanded remark about "evolutionary advantages" is exactly the kind of dubious, unfounded assumption you jump all over when it comes from someone else.

Mr. Tea said:

But arguments about it being "unnatural" are totally misguided as far as I can see - just an irrational prejudice.

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no, it is not. if I were to say - "drinking milk is bad because it is infested with witches' - that would be an irrational prejudice. in this case there is, again, considerable evidence to at least raise doubts.

Mr. Tea said:

My point entirely. 'Natural' does not equal 'good' or 'healthy'.

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no one ever said it did. you're assuming that I (& whoever else) believe that natural = superior.

natural = natural. what is "natural" is open to debate. in broadest terms I tend to think the less mucking about we do w/nature, the better.

Mr. Tea said:

But to say it's "inadvisable" or "inappropriate" to drink milk is to make a universal statement that it's a Bad Idea, for you or for anyone.

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yes a universal statement that I never made. nor did anyone else. FFS.

massrock said:

Well perhaps padraig could explain for himself what he means by saying that sometimes things are unnatural.

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I will say - unnatural is the wrong word. or the wrong concept. I think natural/unnatural is misleading. it always depends on context.

I would put like this - some things are bad ideas. again that depends on who it's a bad idea for, how it's bad, what alternatives there are, etc.

in this specific case I suspect it's a bad idea for humans to eat dairy. bad in that it will have negative effects on their health - not for everyone, of course, but % wise. as I've made very clear I am not absolutely certain about this, I merely suspect it - a scientist type like Mr. Tea is presumably aware of the difference.

massrock said:

Also more specifically what I mean is sometimes it is possible to not realise how bad your diet is for you until you change it.

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true indeed.

padraig (u.s.) said:

yes a universal statement that I never made. nor did anyone else. FFS.

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Go back and look. Massrock said exactly that - and I was responding (in that instance) to his post, not yours. I extrapolated the 'universal' bit, but his suggested terms for why milk-drinking might not be quite 'right' make no sense unless interpreted as universals. I mean, if it's not universally "inappropriate" to drink milk, then presumably it's appropriate for some people to drink it, but not for others. Which is ridiculous (arguments on the genetic prevalence of lactose intolerance notwithstanding, of course).

massrock said:

Even if I was referring to milk specifically, which I wasn't, why do you consider it 'ridiculous' to suggest that milk drinking is OK for some but not such a good idea for others. Especially when you go on in the next sentence to acknowledge that this is in fact the case, and bearing in mind that you were the one who extrapolated the 'universal' bit.

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Oh I dunno, it's late and I'm talking bollocks again. Padraig, I'm sorry about the ecology comment, looking back on it again it was rather arsey. Also I'm sure someone had said something about "humans tampering with nature" - did someone delete a post or did I just hallucinate it? Quite possibly the latter.

Actually, the scientific consensus is that diary products are a very efficient source of essential nutrients, including fatty acids and minerals. Barring a digestive disorder or allergy, there's absolutely no scientific reason why diary products shouldn't be consumed by people.

It is best to restrict your intake to diary products that are lower in saturated fats, for the purposes of avoiding a cardiologist for as long as possible.

Even if you never have diary products once in your life, if your genetic lot is bad enough, you could still die of a heart attack or stroke, however.

The best argument against diary is from the POV of agricultural long term sustainability.

massrock said:

Now that's what I call scientific rigour.

You know, even if someone had made the suggestion that drinking cow's milk was universally a bad idea for humans can you be sure that isn't for whatever reasons?

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Well for one thing I can't imagine it would be such a widespread dietary meme, at least without some degree of taboo attached to it. I mean, some people still smoke, but they can hardly be unaware of its deleterious effects on health...most people in Western societies drink alcohol at least occasionally, but we all know that too much is bad for you...ditto too much salt, saturated fats, carbohydrates, in fact an excess of calories generally. These are well-known Bad Things. But is there any evidence that people who consume dairy products (and have otherwise reasonably healthy lifestyles) are less healthy than people who don't?