Therapy (?)

benjybars

benjybars

village elder.
UFO over easy said:
I read a great interview with Mike Brierley in this months Prospect today. It's probably common knowledge but I had no idea, turns out that after standing down as England captain after the 1981 ashes he became a qualified psychoanalyst, and is now president of the British Psychoanalytical Society.

He talks about the distinction between psychoanalysis and CBT, and draws an analogy between the rise of CBT and the relative decline in NHS-prescibed, public funded long term psychotherapy with the rise of twenty20 and the apparently dwindling support of test cricket.

Might sound a bit gimmicky but it was good. An interesting point of comparison that the article brings up is the fact that CBT doesn't require practitioners to undergo therapy themselves before they qualify.

He basically argues that whilst CBT and short term therapy may be helpful in dealing with specific problems, it doesn't have the range of long term therapy. "Psychoanalysts are trying to free the person over a large range of his mind, his emotional being, his activities, his behaviours, his feelings, his creativity... to expand his mind. Which is why the term 'shrink' is so objectionable." He places "an emphasis on the intuitive, the unconscious, on what you can learn slowly, and that takes a great deal of time to get to." The article claims also that CBT and short term therary rest on fixed, inflexible ideas about happiness.

"Twenty20 is exciting, and good things can happen in it, but it's important to keep test cricket too. The skills derived from test cricket can underpin the twenty20 skills, and a greater range of cricketing ability and personality is revealed through five-day cricket than it is through twenty20. There are parallels to each of these points in the comparison between psychoanalysis and things like CBT."



Sorry for derailment and possible vapidity, I thought it was worth sharing!
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big boy post.
 
B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
craner said:
The thing that really fucks me off about psychotherapists is their condescending and dismissive attitude to counsellers (and to a man, they cannot or will not avoid this). As if access to their arcane knowledge bestows upon them an elevated status in the human pecking order. How many years and how much money does it cost to become a qualified therapist? It's absolutely ludicrous. I know this much, because once upon a time I was going to do it. It didn't take much research to realise that it would be an extortionate waste of life, and make me even more of a cunt than I already am.

Having said all that, Baboon, I do hope you get the required help.
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Thanks - good vibes much appreciated.

I appreciate your reservations about the whole thing. I have no doubt there are a large number of charlatans/twats doing it (I've had the misfortune to encounter one already), but from friends' experiences and a former colleague who is a therapist/counsellor (as far as I know/understand, she has done both), I have seen that there are good people too.

I would agree that anyone who condecends about counsellors is probably an idiot.

As for qualification...I think it's six years or something crazy, isn't it? I looked into it once (ah, the irony!). Mind you, so many professions involve inordinate investiture of time and money (though psychotherapy may be one of the heaviest).
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
UFO over easy said:
Might sound a bit gimmicky but it was good. An interesting point of comparison that the article brings up is the fact that CBT doesn't require practitioners to undergo therapy themselves before they qualify.

He basically argues that whilst CBT and short term therapy may be helpful in dealing with specific problems, it doesn't have the range of long term therapy. "Psychoanalysts are trying to free the person over a large range of his mind, his emotional being, his activities, his behaviours, his feelings, his creativity... to expand his mind. Which is why the term 'shrink' is so objectionable." He places "an emphasis on the intuitive, the unconscious, on what you can learn slowly, and that takes a great deal of time to get to." The article claims also that CBT and short term therary rest on fixed, inflexible ideas about happiness.
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CBT therapists are generally highly qualified nurses before they start though, and it takes two years of training before you can in any way practise, it's not just like anyone can join.

You're right about CBT of long range therapy, but it's been shown to have practical applications with regard to most anxiety disorders - OCD, PTSD, insomnia. Not very effective for agoraphobia however. Interesting developments with regard to it and chronic fatigue syndrome, which it's pretty much wiping out.

I was involved in filming a company that were investing heavily in CBT in order to sell it to the government as a cheap application in order to get the long term unemployed back to work. It was literally like working for the devil, and as expected when you work for the devil the money was fantastic, so there are obviously people looking at ways in which it can be used in ways which perhaps I, for one, wouldn't necessarily approve of.

I think it's a great way to sort out some of the disorders above though, calling it a therapy is maybe a misnomer, it's more like a series of applications that anyone can do once learnt. I thought that was very egalitarian, as opposed to the somewhat patriarchal hierarchies that one has to pass through with therapy per se.
 
nomadthethird

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
To be a psychotherapist here, it's 8 years, you need either a PhD or an MD. And if you get an MD, it's really 10 years because you do a 2-year residency (at least in the U.S.).

A counselor has an MA in public health. They don't have the same amount of technical knowledge, but I fucking love my one-on-one counselor from my outpatient program, he and I still talk sometimes. I have to say, since he had gone through the same things I had, it really did help to have the group therapy and one-on-one sessions with him in addition to seeing the psychiatrist who writes my scripts. When I moved and switched shrinks, I really lucked out--this one I'm seeing now is the first one who drew a line in the sand and said I had to complete a program or he wouldn't continue treating me. Usually, I would have doctor shopped till I found one who did whatever I wanted, but up here, there just aren't enough of them to do that.

Check out this paragraph I just read in "The Flight From Intimacy" (on dependency issues in relationships)

 
nomadthethird

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
mistersloane said:
I was involved in filming a company that were investing heavily in CBT in order to sell it to the government as a cheap application in order to get the long term unemployed back to work. It was literally like working for the devil, and as expected when you work for the devil the money was fantastic, so there are obviously people looking at ways in which it can be used in ways which perhaps I, for one, wouldn't necessarily approve of.

I think it's a great way to sort out some of the disorders above though, calling it a therapy is maybe a misnomer, it's more like a series of applications that anyone can do once learnt. I thought that was very egalitarian, as opposed to the somewhat patriarchal hierarchies that one has to pass through with therapy per se.
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Yes, agree with your concerns and this last point is interesting. It's funny, because I notice there's a tendency for CBT to be embraced by people who would otherwise want nothing to do with psychotherapy--I see this in individuals, but also corporations and businesses. I think there are a lot of corporations that are dropping coverage for mental health on their insurance and instead are starting to send their employees to little CBT retreats for a quick fix of "up-and-at-em" confidence boosting exercises.

This is just not at all how it's supposed to work, or what professional guidelines suggest that it's useful for. I think it's been proven to be very effective in conjunction with other things for very specific problems (certain anxiety disorders--OCD especially), but it's not really "talk therapy" that's meant to address the sort of lifelong issues most people would need to deal with. It's meant only to teach coping skills or techniques for dealing with extreme physiological stress.
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
nomadthethird said:
, but it's not really "talk therapy" that's meant to address the sort of lifelong issues most people would need to deal with. It's meant only to teach coping skills or techniques for dealing with extreme physiological stress.
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Yeah, definitely, and seems to be very effective with these as well, and I think this is to be stressed, it's effective in a way that just mood stabilising drugs or talk therapy failed.Jut because something is being bastardised doesn't mean that it doesn't have brilliant functions.It's horrible the way it's being bought into business.

I used to think counselling was rubbish until I met a guy who was getting up at four o'clock in the morning to leave the house by five to get to work at seven, to leave work at seven, go to the gym and then come home, eat and sleep and then...he'd been doing this (to further his career) in a new country for two years, and in that time hadn't met a single person aside from prostitutes. His counsellor was literally his only non-work contact, and I just thought, god, counselling definitely has a place.
 
nomadthethird

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
mistersloane said:
I used to think counselling was rubbish until I met a guy who was getting up at four o'clock in the morning to leave the house by five to get to work at seven, to leave work at seven, go to the gym and then come home, eat and sleep and then...he'd been doing this (to further his career) in a new country for two years, and in that time hadn't met a single person aside from prostitutes. His counsellor was literally his only non-work contact, and I just thought, god, counselling definitely has a place.
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Oh yeah, that, and often friends and family are a huge part of the problem, it's not like there's no one to talk to, it's that (esp with addicts) talking to friends or family can make the problems worse when they're partially responsible for the endless cycle in the first place. There are certain people I just can't be around, as much as I want to be or like them. Basically from now on I have to avoid all of the people who I'm most likely to want to hang out with.
 
S

scottdisco

rip this joint please
craner said:
The thing that really fucks me off about psychotherapists is their condescending and dismissive attitude to counsellers (and to a man, they cannot or will not avoid this).
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i saw a psychotherapist for about 18 months from late summer '06 until around late spring '08 or so (which was alright; he was a good bloke in himself and fortunately we built up a rapport personally, though it was work, it certainly helped me overall quite productively i think, although i've been very fucked up again all this year and part of last year, so hah!) and Ollie is bang OTM re the attitude to counsellors thing. the difference is essentially therapists will argue back at you, whereas counsellors are more likely to proffer an ear and tissues. AFAIK.

but everything that has been said about them here seems accurate to me, including - i'd argue, just from my experience - Nomad's quote from The Flight From Intimacy.

the last thing i 'did' for my old shrink was send him a postcard last August from the skyscraper museum in lower Manhattan: i hope he liked it, it was a nice photo.

the characterisation of counsellors and therapists here is, i'm sure, bollocks.
 
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nomadthethird

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
craner said:
I have a strong suspicion that psychotherapists are deluded, dangerous mountebanks, peddling a pseudoscience that causes more problems than it ever solves, and often putting harmful and erroneous ideas into vulnerable people's heads. I'm not going to elaborate on that or back it up with any evidence, that's just how I feel about it.
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"Oh, that's just a racket for the Jews" as matriarch Soprano put it...? ;)
 
S

scottdisco

rip this joint please
i want to make clear that i also agree w' the view of pyschotherapy that UFO over easy quotes from Prospect.

well, i mean, it can be that good. not necessarily, but i think it can be. i am not going to back this up of course, just mouthing off.

i always remember, not long after i started seeing my man, a few sessions in or so, i dunno, i forget, but his saying if i wanted a drink (which he knew i have always used as a coping mechanism; i don't smoke or anything), why not. sounds stupidly simple (and is) but after a self-flagellating dry eight months or so at that time, was revelatory.

i drink these days (and sometimes though rarer than before, stupidly, to excess), but i can count on the fingers of one hand the amount of times i've 'needed' a drink in about the past 12 months or so. progress of a sort. about this time three years ago, i needed a drink once or twice a week.

christ! this is all rather confessional..
 
swears

swears

preppy-kei
Peter Gibbons: So I was sitting in my cubicle today, and I realized, ever since I started working, every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life.

Dr. Swanson: What about today? Is today the worst day of your life?

Peter Gibbons: Yeah.

Dr. Swanson: Wow, that's messed up.
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