Music / Not Music

Brother Randy Hickey

formerly Dubversion
excuse the preamble:

my best friend is an english teacher out in Singapore who's introducing a basic Theory of Knowledge unit for certain GCSE-equivalent students. They're covering all the basics in that regard but his main push is regarding aesthetics, which he feels is taught as being "softer" than proper sciences when it comes to TOK. So he's trying to engage the kids in these "what is art?" basics and traditionally it seems to be done with visual art (y'know, here's an early Picasso which is a beautiful reproduction, now here's a late Picasso which looks primitive, what's going on here kinda thing?). But most kids of the age he's teaching don't give a damn about visual art and instead are music-fixated.

So yesterday we had a drunken discussion about how he might tackle the "what is music" issue, and he's looking for some useful, illuminating pieces - not TOO odd, these are fairly young kids - to get them thinking.

I suggested he use a field recording of, say, a waterfall or similar. then play something like Nurse With Wound's Salt Marie Celeste, which is almost a "fictional field recording", in a sense. Then ask if the kids consider it music, and if not, why not? and move further in towards what's conventionally considered music and get them to examine their assumptions...

SO (hungover preamble over). Recommendations wanted for interesting, ideally fun, pieces that would challenge kids' notions of what music is or isn't that he can use as a tool in his lessons?
 

don_quixote

Trent End
the 'not too odd' bit is holding me back here!

fairly obvious extremities like:
4'33"
metal machine music

i would play 10 pieces that have been accused of being "not music" (like the above) and get the kids to decide and debate where the boundary lies.

here's a fun place to start: http://www.av1611.org/cqguide.html :eek:

scroll down to "what is rock music?"
 
Maybe some early electronic music and musique concrete, for example Vareses "Poeme Electronique" or "Etudes aux chemin de fer" by Pierre Schaeffer. They use "non-musical" sounds but are quite obviously composed.
 

Brother Randy Hickey

formerly Dubversion
yeh, i think that'd be good. And maybe some beatboxing followed by the teacher himself making some random mumbling noises. One is "music", one, allegedly, isn't...
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Maybe he could use a sound editing prog gradually to alter a piece of music to the point at which it becomes something other.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Maybe he could use a sound editing prog gradually to alter a piece of music to the point at which it becomes something other.

...or start with some psytrance and gradually distort and corrupt it to see if at any point it begins to resemble music?
 

STN

sou'wester
how about Machine Gun by Peter Brotzmann tentet? It's very full on but is an interesting example because 'real' instruments are being played proficiently, but it sounds like an unholy bloody racket.
 

nochexxx

harco pronting
not sure if i'm on the right track but i immediately though of these records.

reynols - blank tapes

john oswald - plunderphonics 69/96

komar & melamid and david soldier - the most unwanted music

chris watson's stuff
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Just play them Throbbing Gristle's Hamburger Lady until they're all in tears or have left the classroom.

That'll teach them...I dunno, something. Good for a laugh, anyway.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
also play music from the past which were considered "not music" when they first appeared:

Eric Satie
Louis Armstrong
Stravinsky
Chuck Berry
etc, etc.

and tell historical anecdotes/stories that go along with each.
 

dave quam

Well-known member
I think stuff like sound art, sound installations, and field recordings aren't music, but things like euro improv, electro-acoustic improv, Twin Infinitives, noise, ect are all totally music.
 

Sick Boy

All about pride and egos
Noise is a difficult one to classify since a lot of noise artists themselves insist that what they are doing isn't music. If you want to seperate sound art and music from each other, it becomes very difficult to define noise. Not only because noise obviously employs "non-musical" sounds, but also because it often has a lack of composition (i.e. it is improvised). Of course then, you find yourself in the sticky position of deciding whether music is defined by the sounds it uses, or how it uses the sounds. Consider, for example, that the use of feedback from a guitar (an improvised "non-musical" sound) has become par for the course in modern rock music.

This probably makes it good material for your friend's class!
 
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Martin Dust

Techno Zen Master
I'd sort into groups and get the kids to make their own versions and the talk about why because there is no true answer to what you're asking if you consider making any kind of music an art.
 

Sick Boy

All about pride and egos
I'd also say the reasons behind why people feel so compelled to have these kinds of semantic arguments is as interesting, if not more interesting, than the original question itself.
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
maybe couple of examples of pieces which ostensibly sound very musical in terms of rhythm/harmony etc, but made without traditional musical equipment. music for pieces of wood by steve reich, john bakers christmas jingle for radiophonic workshop - , one of the matmos plastic surgery tunes might get a good ewwww reaction

just to counterbalance the field recordings and stuff. from memory i don't think we were able to engage with stuff like that in school lessons but if contrasted with something equally interesting but musically more immediate maybe it could work better
 
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