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labrat
23-05-2006, 12:00 PM
i know he posted some MP3's and folks on another forum kicked off but has his blog gone alltogether ?(am i missing something ???)
just askin'

Ness Rowlah
23-05-2006, 12:40 PM
No you are not missing anything (apart from Mr Gutter and his typewriter?).

Gutter's probably just making a point ("suck on this you dubsteppers").
If and when he comes back is all up to him.

The dissensus is shit by k-punk (http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=3893) thread has all the relevant stuff and external links.

noel emits
23-05-2006, 02:39 PM
It's all a bit unfortunate.

A curious error of judgement on Gutterbreakz' part for sure, but I don't know how anyone could even start to imagine that he posted those files with anything but the best of intentions.

Weird.

gek-opel
23-05-2006, 05:32 PM
I'm missing him already. Having read the relevant stuff over on the DubstepForum, I think the whole "business" thing has messed with these guys heads- if anyone lost a single penny of revenue over this, I would be VERY much surprised. If people want to make money long term, it seems obvious that the main way to do this is to allow dubstep to become an international genre (hence DJ gigs increase as well as sales of recorded music). The promo that Gutta was doing for the whole seen was massive. A great loss.

Freakaholic
23-05-2006, 05:48 PM
Does it strike anyone else that most of the tongue wagging and finger pointing on dubstepforum is by the people that stand to lose the least? and, usually, do the least.

sorry, but i know forums basically breed this sort of attitude and responses, and i for one had enough of that when i first started drinking and discussing back when i was 16/17 (philosophy, politics, religion, music, movies, society, culture: always turns personal).

My stand now: take what you can get and buy it when you want. Music is music, but a product is a product. A cd, a record, an mp3: these are products. Ill take em when theyre free, buy em when theyre not.

I download, I peer share, and i spend all my excess money on vinyl and the occansional cd (last one bought: The Terrorists - Forces: 77-82 http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:3xbyxdjb3ol0) and i tell ya, if i coulda downloaded it, i wouldve.

noel emits
23-05-2006, 06:04 PM
Come back Gutta!

I must say though that had it been my music that had been offered up as high quality mp3s - even if it was totally unavailable (and some of those tracks are still around on vinyl) - well, I would have felt a little left-out-of-the-loop if my permission had not been asked. Nothing to do with money at all, just courtesy really. That's what I mean by an error of judgement. Apart from that it was obviously done for the love of the music and for simply wanting to share the goodness.

Ned
23-05-2006, 06:50 PM
Does it strike anyone else that most of the tongue wagging and finger pointing on dubstepforum is by the people that stand to lose the least? and, usually, do the least.

I couldn't believe all those people demanding that he make some kind of tearful apology when they have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Grievous Angel
23-05-2006, 06:58 PM
I want Gutta back, ASAP, and I really hope this is just a temporary measure.

I can understand people's attitudes to filesharing - essentially it's protective of the interests of the artists. It was unfortunate that some of the files Nick shared were coincidentally re-released by Tempa, hence their request to take them down, to which he acceded immediately. But no-one can or should deny that Nick had the very best of intentions.

gek-opel
23-05-2006, 09:35 PM
But from his POV: you can see that he puts in all that effort writing up every club night, every release, updating his site 5+ times a week with quality, well-thought-out content, and he makes one (semi) mistake and he gets completely lambasted by the very people who read his blog every day....

Grievous Angel
23-05-2006, 10:49 PM
The suggestion is that a high proportion of the people giving Nick a hard time are fresh recruits to dubstep, but I've no way of knowing if that's the case.

scarboi
23-05-2006, 11:18 PM
Well I've posted on the Dubstep Forum since literally its first day and almost everyone on that thread seems to have only been there for a month or two.

As far as I can tell the majority of them are Dogs On Acid people.

Which sucks, because drum and bass politicking is the last thing I wanted to see involved with dubstep.


There are some genuinely inspiring people making and supporting dubstep.


I'm thinking people like Mala, Joe Nice, and Nick.


I'm so tired of this scenester shit.

DJL
24-05-2006, 12:22 AM
I was lucky enough to download these before they were removed. Here is the full tracklisting of what was available:

'Crack Bong' - D1
'London' - Benny Ill & DJ Dinesh
'Babylon' - Kode 9 & Daddi G
'Mawo Dub' - Digital Mystikz
'Amazon' - El-B
'The Bug' - Skream
'Jungle Infiltrator' - Loefah
'Amber' - Benga

I agree that it was a misjudgement to upload them in so prominent a place without asking permission first but the reaction by the dubstep forum has been massively OTT.

I think the influence of the internet is far greater than the amount of people who actually use it and the scene risks losing this influence by being mean-spirited to those who tirelessly work and promote what they obviously love. I always remember the massive bootlegging of 'Boy In Da Corner' before it went on to sell 250,000 or whatever and wonder what effect that had on the eventual sales. A large part of the audience for underground dance music simply can't afford to buy vinyl and there are many more tracks around that people would like to have that are not available to buy on CD or legally download. Its no surprise someone has reacted against this. Don't forget that the copying of mixtapes pretty much invented the whole underground dance scene in the first place.

People need to think a bit more about the *real* effect of certain actions and react appropiately. In the first five months of this year dubstep has seen itself bumped up massively and I think some people are feeling a little disorientated. Maybe this is why one of the best lineups for a rave in ages are playing in a strip club. That Gutter has decided to turn his back for a short time (I hope) is wholly appropiate imo.

nomos
24-05-2006, 01:44 AM
it was bad timing but good intentions on nick's part. interestingly, skream and luke.envoy had a go at him, while shackleton and paul rose stood up for him. i think the whole thing was ugly. a lot of ignorance was expressed on that thread (which spilled over to another one) by people who don't really understand the role that nick's played. it's discouraging. i wish his blog was there, but i'm also glad he's taken it and his myspace down for now.

bassnation
24-05-2006, 09:31 AM
Come back Gutta!

I must say though that had it been my music that had been offered up as high quality mp3s - even if it was totally unavailable (and some of those tracks are still around on vinyl) - well, I would have felt a little left-out-of-the-loop if my permission had not been asked. Nothing to do with money at all, just courtesy really. That's what I mean by an error of judgement. Apart from that it was obviously done for the love of the music and for simply wanting to share the goodness.

yes, best to ask first - however i don't really understand this penny-pinching joyless business attitude coming from some of these artists / labels.

theres not much money to be made anymore (and thats more to do with the commercial dance scene no longer existing than it has to do with file sharing). the producers i know do it for the love, and the most important thing for them is to be heard.

it reminds me of heavy metal bands sueing fan sites because they've uploaded a photo from a gig that is copyrighted - its stupidity to litigate against your most passionate fans. they don't deserve that passion, when they act this way. sometimes its better to let minor transgressions slip for the good of the scene and getting your music heard. no-one is a superstar just yet, no matter how much they feel like it after that radio 1 show.

3underscore
24-05-2006, 10:14 AM
Most noticable that the people who went at him were the (apparently) younger elements.

The whole politics of dubstep are one of the reasons I have always kept my head down on a lot of these things (I have been buying dubstep for several years and am very integrated into the known buyer side). From having been to early DMZ nights seeing the intense politik gathering by it being busy now is laughable - the almost desperate wanting for exclusivity on some parts is incredible. It is a strange dynamic, Skream worrying about it affecting record sales vs several folk protecting the exclusivity of their early releases.

Y'know - I really do think this is one of the reasons why Burial has chosen the route he has. And it makes sense. Steering clear from the whole mixed vibes. There is so much bullshit about the album being only CD - I suggest they offer Kode9 to pay for the pressing at the standard required for a share of the profits if it matters that much (All none of them).

The whole dubstep forum vibe is very herd mentality. I find it surprising the love that certain tunes get on an almost unanimous level. It is a very dangerous area for being shouted down if someone dare say they don't like a tune. Almost like because the supply of tunes is quite low, and because something is exclusive, it must be good. It is almost tempting to post on there a list of tunes I haven't bought and why (it isn't a lack of money, purely it isn't worth it).

Anyway - a little off track. I feel sorry for Gutta being the victim of this kangeroo court, and I think he has behaved impecably given the amount of crap going on about it.

Woebot
24-05-2006, 10:31 AM
I've been really anti-filesharing in the past, and Gutta knows as much, but it's very much on principle. And lord knows I've done it myself, and do it, offer up files for people to download without seeking all the correct permissions.

However I'd never actually single anyone out personally for villification. Subject them to a witch-hunt, deny the validity of their best intentions. I thought the way everone rounded on him, especially artists (particularly humiliating for him, why couldnt they just email him!), at the Dubstep forum was a disgrace.

bruno
24-05-2006, 11:15 AM
it was particularly sad to read 'who is gutterbreakz?', coming from an artist he had mentioned in his blog. you can't expect someone with this level of engagement with reality to take a stance on anything.

nomos
24-05-2006, 02:47 PM
So the blog is back in limited form now. Unfortunately, the personal side is no longer. Strictly music. And apparently some people still can't let it go (http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4168). This whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth. Some of these career-oriented artists might want to consider the large amounts of unpaid time and effort that people like Nick (and myself) put into promoting their work and, presumably, expanding their 'markets.'

gek-opel
24-05-2006, 05:10 PM
Absolutely- and whilst its true too much file sharing can fuck a scene completely, there is a happy median point, (on a bell curve I bet- where file sharing increases total market value/size) which I doubt Gutta crossed in any sense. Dubstep would in no way be a potentially profitable market for producers/djs without the labours of bloggers spreading it worldwide.... (and anyway surely the main way people make a living off it is by DJ gigs, not 12" sales which I always imagined did little more than break even)

simon silverdollar
25-05-2006, 09:08 AM
guttabreakz is sorely missed, hope he's back soon.

peripheral
25-05-2006, 02:06 PM
this whole issue is just symptomatic of the general dubsetpforum idiocy that had me give up posting there. someone mentioned it upthread - general non-critical love for every tune/producer/night, and artists responding personally to anything vaguely critical. all a bit undignified.

I've enjoyed reading all independent music blogs since I discovered them (relatively recent), have discovered SO much new music and musical history from them (and on here - thanks btw) and am always in awe of the time/effort/love that goes into producing such high quality output. gutter in particular was a one-man bristol (and wider) dubstep publicity machine, and skream, luke envoy et al need to show some love/appreciation for what he and others do for their and their music's coverage (respect to paul rose for his position, btw).

would be interested to hear what blackdown thinks on this - I know Hell_sd is a bit long on this point, but in this case, where the artists BD's quite involved with have been so public with their views, I'd like to hear what BD, as a fellow blogger, thinks about it all.

boomnoise
26-05-2006, 12:06 PM
this whole issue is just symptomatic of the general dubsetpforum idiocy that had me give up posting there. someone mentioned it upthread - general non-critical love for every tune/producer/night, and artists responding personally to anything vaguely critical. all a bit undignified.

i agree and i've been trying to address this. i do feel as though i'm trying to bang my head up against a brick wall. the problem is the critical thought which has been displayed so far has lacked anything of substance. more digs than anything else.

this said critical thought on dubstep has been lacking even here until the recent success of the burial thread /album.

bassnation
26-05-2006, 01:53 PM
i agree and i've been trying to address this. i do feel as though i'm trying to bang my head up against a brick wall. the problem is the critical thought which has been displayed so far has lacked anything of substance. more digs than anything else.

this said critical thought on dubstep has been lacking even here until the recent success of the burial thread /album.

and what exactly do you mean by critical thought of substance? if its yet another dig because not everyones on the same pomo tip, then i call bullshit.

if you are saying that people uncritically accept every crumb from the plates of the dubstep elite, and the prevailing atmosphere is one of a herd mentality with people lower down the perceived pecking order getting a mass kicking (equally applicable to self-appointed intellectuals as it is council estate dubsteppas btw) - then thats something i can agree with.

boomnoise
26-05-2006, 02:33 PM
and what exactly do you mean by critical thought of substance? if its yet another dig because not everyones on the same pomo tip, then i call bullshit.

if you are saying that people uncritically accept every crumb from the plates of the dubstep elite, and the prevailing atmosphere is one of a herd mentality with people lower down the perceived pecking order getting a mass kicking (equally applicable to self-appointed intellectuals as it is council estate dubsteppas btw) - then thats something i can agree with.

the latter.

i'm not taking digs i'm just frustrated with things.

by critical thought of substance i mean something a tad more analytical than the majority of what's going on at dubstepforum where criticism/analysis is reduced to 'big ups' or 'not feelings'

peripheral
26-05-2006, 03:51 PM
the latter.

i'm not taking digs i'm just frustrated with things.

by critical thought of substance i mean something a tad more analytical than the majority of what's going on at dubstepforum where criticism/analysis is reduced to 'big ups' or 'not feelings'

'big up you. no big up you. no big up me...'


on and on. but more widely, it's not at all a good look for producers/DJs/all their mates to jump on a forum and offer all and sundry outside at the first hint of negativity. if anything this just encourages the fanboys to echo them - 'big up him!' 'allow the haters' etc etc. honestly it's like a playgroup.

there's also this weird notion flaoting around that everyone has a kind of collective moral responsibility to present a united public dubstep front - meaning being absolutely non-critical at all times. one poster on dsf even pronounced gutter's mp3 posting as 'grounds for blacklisting'. yup I know. I'm too much of a baby (in musical terms at least) to know if this kind of idea was around in the early(ish) days of other sounds when they started to get bigger, but would be interested to know how it panned out if so....

sufi
26-05-2006, 03:56 PM
so it's probly best to discuss yr feelings & opinions on dubstepforum ... er on dubstepforum,
please

yagetme?

ta :)

peripheral
26-05-2006, 04:27 PM
so it's probly best to discuss yr feelings & opinions on dubstepforum ... er on dubstepforum,
please

yagetme?

ta :)

yup point taken, got you. but it is about gutta - this all kicked off on dsf after all. the wider point was about a dubstep hegemony that, not just on dsf, is becoming a bit pervasive. this is what gutta seems to have fallen foul of. so...I was asking dissensians if this was just a common feature of a sound as it spreads to a wider audience - did it happen with dnb, for example - or is it exclusive to dubstep?

noel emits
26-05-2006, 04:37 PM
i don't think that ideas about 'blacklisting' exist any further than the skull of that particular dsf poster you quoted.

also i can't help but wonder how many of the numerous samples on said individual's latest record have been cleared / paid for? hmmm...

peripheral
26-05-2006, 05:00 PM
i don't think that ideas about 'blacklisting' exist any further than the skull of that particular dsf poster you quoted.

also i can't help but wonder how many of the numerous samples on said individual's latest record have been cleared / paid for? hmmm...

ok. good. and isn't it tho...if derivative basslines were as immediately 'ownable' as mp3s, I doubt it would be only gutta in a bit of bother...

noel emits
26-05-2006, 05:44 PM
Some of the folk who laid into GB in that other place really are a morally superior breed and it would be hard for anyone to match their standards. Fine upstanding individuals who PAY for all their software, LOVE their mums and NEVER illegally download.

Self-rightous twonks!

mms
26-05-2006, 07:20 PM
this said critical thought on dubstep has been lacking even here until the recent success of the burial thread /album.


Well the big people have stepped in with their support for parts of the project, k-punk has given it an enormous amount of thought, maybe as part of the hautology idea.
there are people (like me), paul meme, you etc who are both big fans and critical of the genre/can see where it's likely to fuck up.

Dubstep forum is a one issue fan site really, there are others, like the idm type sites which have a similar character.
However i think what happens overtime is early on artists post there, then posters become artists, then posters who are artists but unsucessful attack bigger artists who no longer post there (after flaming/overzealous fanboyness/work, fame taking over.)
One genre forums usually turn out to be pretty bitter places after a few years.
Oddly the people hating on the dubstepforum site seem to be doing what fanboys often do- expressing their opinions on behalf of the artists involved, imagining they are speaking for those artists and protecting their interests, which is frankly bullshit.

Ned
26-05-2006, 08:09 PM
yup point taken, got you. but it is about gutta - this all kicked off on dsf after all. the wider point was about a dubstep hegemony that, not just on dsf, is becoming a bit pervasive. this is what gutta seems to have fallen foul of. so...I was asking dissensians if this was just a common feature of a sound as it spreads to a wider audience - did it happen with dnb, for example - or is it exclusive to dubstep?

There was that drum'n'bass producer - General something? - who got blacklisted for saying he invented jungle and then DJ Rap got death threats for playing his tracks. Obviously that was on a much bigger scale but represents a similar mentality I think.

matt b
27-05-2006, 09:42 AM
There was that drum'n'bass producer - General something?

levy

gek-opel
27-05-2006, 09:53 PM
I read that about the blacklisting thing. Its complete madness. All the people taking that line are ridiculous, jumped up nobodies who think their tin-pot productions are gonna make them millions. Totally deluded!

boomnoise
28-05-2006, 12:23 AM
Well the big people have stepped in with their support for parts of the project, k-punk has given it an enormous amount of thought, maybe as part of the hautology idea.
there are people (like me), paul meme, you etc who are both big fans and critical of the genre/can see where it's likely to fuck up.

Dubstep forum is a one issue fan site really, there are others, like the idm type sites which have a similar character.
However i think what happens overtime is early on artists post there, then posters become artists, then posters who are artists but unsucessful attack bigger artists who no longer post there (after flaming/overzealous fanboyness/work, fame taking over.)
One genre forums usually turn out to be pretty bitter places after a few years.
Oddly the people hating on the dubstepforum site seem to be doing what fanboys often do- expressing their opinions on behalf of the artists involved, imagining they are speaking for those artists and protecting their interests, which is frankly bullshit.

yeah, i was just having a bad day.

nice observations on the patterns of one genre forums.