The Death Penalty – What’s All the Fuzz About?

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
But the sorts who are emigrating in order to carry out terrorist schemes and such are vastly outnumbered by people who emigrate in order to actively join and assimilate to another culture and its ideals, right? I would say this is true in the U.S.
The UK is very attractive to people from many countries, EU and otherwise, in terms of work and/or welfare. A lot of the time I don't think people feel they need to integrate in any significant cultural way if they don't want to, it's just a situation to be exploited - maybe because they see Britain as having exploited other countries, or as a 'rich' nation. The thing is these supposed rich exploiters are not really the general British public.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
But the sorts who are emigrating in order to carry out terrorist schemes and such are vastly outnumbered by people who emigrate in order to actively join and assimilate to another culture and its ideals, right? I would say this is true in the U.S.

The numbers who are coming here to actively participate in terrorism could probably be counted on the combined fingers of the number of people currently reading this thread.

Of the rest, most, of all religions and races, assimilate. Some - and sorry to get back into this, but my impression is that this is more typical of Muslims than, say, Hindus, Jews or black Christians - assimilate to a lesser degree. I guess those are the ones Cope thinks are the problem.

My feeling is that it's only a major problem if we allow it be.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
But the sorts who are emigrating in order to carry out terrorist schemes and such are vastly outnumbered by people who emigrate in order to actively join and assimilate to another culture and its ideals, right? I would say this is true in the U.S.

There are plenty of immigrants, at least in Britain, who don't integrate particularly well but don't go so so far as to blow themselves up over it!

Language is a big problem of course, and it's very telling (and very bad) that the Government has (as I understand it) decided to scrap free English lessons for all immigrants except those on benefits just because the Tory press gets indignant whenever it thinks immigrants, or anyone else for that matter*, is 'getting something for nothing'. The upshot of this, in purely economic terms, is that translation services will have to provided for immigrants who would otherwise have made at least some effort to learn English - because most of them, by definition, don't have much money and are unlikely to pay for lessons out of their pockets - and that immigrants who don't learn the language will end up in much less well-paid jobs than they could get otherwise, therefore paying less tax and buying less stuff. So even thinking just in cold hard cash, it's a complete loser of an idea; that's without taking into account the human effect of immigrants finding it harder to integrate, and more and more native Brits being made to feel like foreigners in their own country - all grist to the Sun/Mail/Express's wheel, of course...

*edit: the royal family exluded, heh heh :cool:
 
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crackerjack

Well-known member
There was talk a while back of Germany setting an immigration test with a series of questions which were clearly designed to weed out those with reactionary attitudes. Anyone know what became of it?


Language is a big problem of course, and it's very telling (and very bad) that the Government has (as I understand it) decided to scrap free English lessons for all immigrants except those on benefits just because the Tory press gets indignant whenever it thinks immigrants, or anyone else for that matter, is 'getting something for nothing'.

They are? Fucking insanity.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps

crackerjack

Well-known member
Looks like it:
http://student.independent.co.uk/future/colleges/article2420564.ece
http://education.guardian.co.uk/further/story/0,,2115132,00.html

And yet... http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/cs/blogs/mfle/archive/2007/06/13/10440.aspx

I have to say I haven't really kept up to speed on this story, last I heard the plans were in the pipeline but I don't know if they've gone through yet. Maybe they'll get ditched like 80% of ministerial (and even prime-ministerial) 'big ideas' seem to.

Sigh. I was hoping to audition for the Ennglish teacher's role in the revived Mind Your Language.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
The U.S. inches closer toward being an officially bilingual nation everyday--in Brooklyn and the other outer boroughs, there are neighborhoods where you won't even see signs in English, only signs in Spanish. Even our metrocard machines and ATMs have instructions in 3-5 languages, varying by neighborhood and its distinct immigrant populations. There are definitely people who get away with living in the U.S. in major coastal cities without ever really learning English on more than a very basic conversational level.

Of course, conservatives here have a huge problem with that, they think it's going to "corrode" our nation and its values somehow. I don't really think their concerns are legitimate.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
But what if YOU were a non-English-speaking Spanish-speaker whose job prospects were severely limited by not knowing English?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect people to learn the language of the country where they live at least to a basic conversational level (and if anyone's crap at this is the British, although many in this situation go abroad to retire, rather than work). It's not like anyone's trying to ban immigrants from speaking their own languages, after all. I also think it's reasonable for governments of rich countries that receive lots of immigrants to pay for or at least subsidise language lessons, since most immigrants tend of course to come from poor(er) countries.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
The U.S. inches closer toward being an officially bilingual nation everyday--in Brooklyn and the other outer boroughs, there are neighborhoods where you won't even see signs in English, only signs in Spanish. Even our metrocard machines and ATMs have instructions in 3-5 languages, varying by neighborhood and its distinct immigrant populations. There are definitely people who get away with living in the U.S. in major coastal cities without ever really learning English on more than a very basic conversational level.

Of course, conservatives here have a huge problem with that, they think it's going to "corrode" our nation and its values somehow. I don't really think their concerns are legitimate.

Yah, my 'hood too. I get asked if I speak Spanish before people hand out advertisements to me -- hilarious! Next neighborhood over is all Chinese... interesting how no one gets upset about "unassimilated" Chinese in the Chinatowns across the U.S. -- anymore at least.

"Make 'em learn English" is still a Republican talking point rearing its head in the primaries...
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Yeah, I think it makes sense for people who move to another country to be expected to learn the national language, I just find it interesting that more and more somehow politically you can get by in the U.S. without assimilating in certain fundamental ways. My grandfather REFUSED to speak Italian, because he always said that was the language for the old country--to be American in the sense of being as fully assimilated as possible was a "goal" of that generation of immigrants to the U.S., and it was a point of pride to have the slightest accent possible for a lot of members of my family.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
But what if YOU were a non-English-speaking Spanish-speaker whose job prospects were severely limited by not knowing English?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect people to learn the language of the country where they live at least to a basic conversational level (and if anyone's crap at this is the British, although many in this situation go abroad to retire, rather than work). It's not like anyone's trying to ban immigrants from speaking their own languages, after all. I also think it's reasonable for governments of rich countries that receive lots of immigrants to pay for or at least subsidise language lessons, since most immigrants tend of course to come from poor(er) countries.

But the point of them being here, as someone pointed out upthread, is that they are cheap labor and their inability to speak the "native tongue" keeps them locked in the cheap labor ghetto. That's why your gov't is pulling the English speaking programs, as they were defunded here -- keeps them down. This provincialism is ludicrous actually: why not learn the languages of your neighbors, of the people living around you? People in Africa and the former Yugoslavia speak their ethnic language and typically can at least get by with the languages of their neighbors, as well as a Western European language or two. It's just another arbitrary barrier for a lot of jobs, a way of securing native privilege for people satisfied with their own ignorance.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Yah, my 'hood too. I get asked if I speak Spanish before people hand out advertisements to me -- hilarious! Next neighborhood over is all Chinese... interesting how no one gets upset about "unassimilated" Chinese in the Chinatowns across the U.S. -- anymore at least.

"Make 'em learn English" is still a Republican talking point rearing its head in the primaries...

I would say about 80% of the car service drivers who drive in my neighborhood don't know English, not even numbers!! If I had a dime for every time I've had to remember how to say 896 in Spanish, I'd be rich.

Good point about Chinatowns. Asians have always been honorary whites though right?

BTW has anyone seen the trailer for that film about Japanese internment camps where baseball saved the day and allowed everyone to bond and prove their real "Americanness"??? I really thought it had to be a joke when I saw it, but apparently it was for real.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
They should show prospective immigrants photos of Paris Hilton, Dale Winton, James Blunt, Jeremy Kyle and Jordan. Anyone failing to respond in the correct manner - anger, displays of violence, vomiting etc. - should be put on the first plane back to wherever they've come from. :D
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
This provincialism is ludicrous actually: why not learn the languages of your neighbors, of the people living around you?
This has long been a problem for the UK. Island mentality + used to have an empire + everyone speaks English anyway = why should we bother?
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
Good point about Chinatowns. Asians have always been honorary whites though right?

Not always: in pre-statehood, post-U.S.-conquest California, the hierarchy went Anglo whites, Mexican plantation owners (typically "whiter" but very messy of course), Italians/Irish, Chinese and Mexican laborers, blacks on the bottom. These statuses changed around as the racial makeup and socio-economic situation changed.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
But the point of them being here, as someone pointed out upthread, is that they are cheap labor and their inability to speak the "native tongue" keeps them locked in the cheap labor ghetto. That's why your gov't is pulling the English speaking programs, as they were defunded here -- keeps them down.

I think that's an unnecessarily conspiratorial view of the situation; it's just cowardly pandering to the right-wing press as far as I can see. Plenty of immigrants from eastern Europe have arrived with a good knowledge of English (though many haven't, of course) and still do low-paid jobs which are nonetheless far better paid than jobs they can get back home.
 
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