The Rise of the Female Foreign Minister

[waffle]

[As a continuation of the sex/rape thread by other means]

After Condoleeza, I wonder why so many far right countries increasingly select female (often pretty, see below) foreign ministers, Georgia's [she makes Buffy seem old) being the latest?

This was Georgia's foreign minister in 2007. He was sacked, and replaced this year by the youthful Ekaterine Tkeshaleshvili (she's actually 31, not 15), Georgia also having had a previous female in the role from 2004-05: Salomé Zurabishvili):

[Photos and details of all the ministers mentioned below are here.]

Then there's Columbia, that noted model of South American democracy and protector of human rights, with a succession of pleasant foreign ministers:

1996-98 Dr. María Emma Mejía Vélez de Caballero

2002- Carolina Barco Isackson, Colombia
2006-07 María Consuelo Araújo Castro.

María Consuelo resigned after her brother, Senator Alvaro Araujo was arrested on suspicion of ties with paramilitaries involved in the country's drug trade.

And Paraguay: Leila Rachid de Cowles

And Israel: Appointed in 2006: Tzipi Livni, continuing in the Golda Meïr 'tradition'.

And Poland: 2006- Anna Fotyga. She is a 'close collaborator of the ultra-rightwing President Lech Kaczyński'.

But it's not all that bad, their being exceptions.

 

[nomadthethird]

Well, isn't it always easier to swallow the pill of the female-in-power if taken with the sugar that is easy-to-objectify prettiness? After all, it's far easier not to take a smart woman seriously if she's also pretty.

The newest trick is: the only "real" feminists are pretty ones who are married with lots of kids who don't believe in female human rights. This type is less likely to respond publicly to real sexism:

And more likely to rebuke the "liberal media" for being sexist in their serious and sober consideration of her executive qualifications.

(This isn't to say other types of females-in-power aren't subject to take downs)

 

[waffle]

(This isn't to say other types of females-in-power aren't subject to take downs)

Consolation prize: Hillary is now the latest addition to the above list of foreign ministers.

Clinton accepts Secretary of State post.

 

[jambo]

Is there really a disproportionate trend for (far right) countries to appoint female foreign ministers, is it actually disproportionate? Is having representation not a good thing? Are there not many professions where you will find more of one gender than another? Is that always a bad thing? Are there not statistical predilections amongst genders?

Is there really any more 'prettiness' amongst that lot than you would find in random sample of women from the general population?

What are you (two) saying beyond insinuation and assumption?

What is the issue in your view?

Is it problematic that people who are women are deemed to have qualities that make them suitable as foreign ministers?

After all, it's far easier not to take a smart woman seriously if she's also pretty.

It is? Who's behalf are you speaking on here?

 

[waffle]

Is there really a disproportionate trend for (far right) countries to appoint female foreign ministers, is it actually disproportionate?

That is the question being posed. Yes, I can confirm that, it is indeed the question. What do you think?

Is there really any more 'prettiness' amongst that lot than you would find in random sample of women from the general population?

Perhaps. What are your thoughts on the practice?

What are you (two) saying beyond insinuation and assumption?

You're sensory spectacles are sniffing out a conspiracy, then?

What is the issue in your view?

Um ... let me try and guess ... umm ... Biopolitics!!!?? PR/Medium is the Message?

Is it problematic that people who are women are deemed to have qualities that make them suitable as foreign ministers?

No, it isn't. That is not what is problematic.

 

[jambo]

I don't know waffle, you brought it up. I was wondering first of all if this is a genuine statistical trend. So, assuming it is...

'Prettiness' is quite subjective, although maybe we can quantify it some way. Perhaps a poll?

I'm not sure the women in the pictures you posted look better to me than the first ten women I might see when I go out into the street. I don't think they do to be honest, will try an experiment later.

You've suggested there might be a trend and in noting it imply that you think it's worthy of note, so I wondered if you had a hypothesis about it and/or what exactly it is that you think makes it worthy of note. I ask in good faith, it's OK if you don't have an answer right now, I don't mean to imply that it's not of interest.

Would you say it has to do with biopolitics that there are more female TV producers or midwives than there are male ones?

 

[jambo]

My feeling initially would be that it would not so much be about the politics of population control or spectacular image as about international diplomacy and interpersonal politics. Perhaps it is understood by some of these harsh regimes that having a 'pretty' woman (I accept the principle but the reality is debatable in most of these cases) as a foreign minister is strategically and diplomatically expedient and advantageous. That is, they have an advantage when it comes to negotiating (with) the typical 'male' characters from other nations they will be dealing with.

Of course you may well want to look into what problematic relations this reflects, but it is simply a matter of pragmatics yet again.

 

[nomadthethird]

Hahahahha.

Hahhahahahah.

Yes, now Jambo is furrowing his brow, all concerned about "statistical accuracy" when for three days in a very serious discussion of rape prevention and institutional sexism, statistics were all but meaningless.

Since when are you so concerned with not hystericizing a phenomenon by ignoring statistics, Jambo?

Since about 3 posts ago.

 

[nomadthethird]

My feeling initially would be that it would not so much be about the politics of population control or spectacular image as about international diplomacy and interpersonal politics. Perhaps it is understood by some of these harsh regimes that having a 'pretty' woman (I accept the principle but the reality is debatable in most of these cases) as a foreign minister is strategically and diplomatically expedient and advantageous. That is, they have an advantage when it comes to negotiating (with) the typical 'male' characters from other nations they will be dealing with.

Of course you may well want to look into what problematic relations this reflects, but it is simply a matter of pragmatics yet again.

Yes, it's debatable just how "pretty" a given person is. The fact remains, however, that there once was a day when only extremely bright women who worked very hard could make it to the top politically. Usually these women were of average or below-average looks, because "SMART" and "PRETTY" has always been a binary in contemporary society.

It only makes sense that in far right countries, only the prettiest women are allowed to make it into government.

Look at what they've done to Hillary, a highly qualified (even if I don't agree with her politics) woman who because of her feminism and lack of striking beauty, is widely reviled and taken down with the pettiest of political tactics, while a blithering idiot with no qualifications and not even the most basic knowledge of policy just snagged the republican VP nomination.

And she (Sarah Palin) had the nerve to call herself a feminist while professing her belief that abortion is wrong even in cases of rape and incest.

If this irony is lost on you, I feel sorry for you Jambo.

 

[nomadthethird]

I'm not sure the women in the pictures you posted look better to me than the first ten women I might see when I go out into the street. I don't think they do to be honest, will try an experiment later.

What a rigorous and well-controlled experiment that would be! How lucky we'd be to have these results to use for comparison to our own non-scientific analysis.

Do get back to us with your data.

 

[nomadthethird]

Are there not statistical predilections amongst genders?

Here's another good one. Thanks for being such a stickler for math, Jambo.

Unforunately, there is no such thing as "statistical predilections amongst genders." There is in some cases a statistical correlation between a career and a higher number of men or women who practice it.

This sort of correlation does not prove that there's a "predilection" among a certain gender for that career, only that certain careers are more likely to be entered by men or women. This could be for a variety of reasons that may have absolutely nothing to do with "predilection" and everything to do with gender norms, economic disparity, inequal opportunities for women and men, etc.

 

[jambo]

Hahahahha.

Hahhahahahah.

Yes, now Jambo is furrowing his brow, all concerned about "statistical accuracy" when for three days in a very serious discussion of rape prevention and institutional sexism, statistics were all but meaningless.

Give it a rest. I'm not asking you the fricking question. You also still have no idea what other people are talking about because you endlessly insist on seeing something else. It's OK, I remember the post where you said that people think you are talking to them on the interent but actually you are carrying on a conversation with yourself.

Since when are you so concerned with not hystericizing a phenomenon by ignoring statistics, Jambo?

Since about 3 posts ago.

Oh cock off. 'Hystericising'. See what you want to bloody see nomadthesecond.

And you are basically trolling here.

 

[jambo]

Yes, it's debatable just how "pretty" a given person is.

Well it is, and that does matter if the thesis (whatever it is) relies on some people being 'pretty'. But I knew that would wind you up, terrible thing for a man to suggest he might make an evaluation of a woman's looks.

The fact remains, however, that there once was a day when only extremely bright women who worked very hard could make it to the top politically.

So it's that these lot are thick is it, I don't recall seeing you or waffle actually saying that.

Usually these women were of average or below-average looks, because "SMART" and "PRETTY" has always been a binary in contemporary society.

If there is a 'binary in contemporary society' does it make it actually so that there are either 'smart' or 'pretty' women? There might be that perception and it might encourage certain roles, but aren't you basically talking about geeks, bookish types, in which case a similar binary applies to men.

Look at what they've done to Hillary, a highly qualified (even if I don't agree with her politics) woman who because of her feminism and lack of striking beauty, is widely reviled and taken down with the pettiest of political tactics, while a blithering idiot with no qualifications and not even the most basic knowledge of policy just snagged the republican VP nomination.

Where's the news in this? I don't think this facile point isn't what waffle was getting at.

And she (Sarah Palin) had the nerve to call herself a feminist while professing her belief that abortion is wrong even in cases of rape and incest.

Sarah Palin in not being very bright shocker.

If this irony is lost on you, I feel sorry for you Jambo.

Mug.

 

[jambo]

What a rigorous and well-controlled experiment that would be! How lucky we'd be to have these results to use for comparison to our own non-scientific analysis.

Do get back to us with your data.

I'm not saying you need to get a sense of humour but at least try and recognise it once in a while.

 

[nomadthethird]

Yes, it's me who's trolling, even though you insist upon going into threads where people are having completely serious, easy to follow, not at all ambiguous or even very profound conversations and post a continuous stream of non-sequiturs, questions that do not pertain to the discussion, and analogies that are not only ludicrous and irrelevant, but often downright offensive to anyone with at least half a brain.

You're quite a barrell of laughs.

 

[nomadthethird]

I love the implication that because YOU simply cannot grasp what statistics are, in the rape thread or anywhere, that other people "didn't see what you were saying" about your insistence that women should avoid drinking or they are at least partially responsible for their own rapes.

 

[nomadthethird]

Well it is, and that does matter if the thesis (whatever it is) relies on some people being 'pretty'. But I knew that would wind you up, terrible thing for a man to suggest he might make an evaluation of a woman's looks.

Yes, I'm terribly "wound up" by the idea that people evaluate women's looks. I'm not attracted to women myself or anything silly like that, as I've repeatedly made clear on this board.

It couldn't be that your questions made no sense, were tangential to the rather obvious point waffle was making, and persistently absurd.

 

[nomadthethird]

If there is a 'binary in contemporary society' does it make it actually so that there are either 'smart' or 'pretty' women? There might be that perception and it might encourage certain roles, but aren't you basically talking about geeks, bookish types, in which case a similar binary applies to men.

This might be the most retarded thing you've ever said here.

Yes, if there's a binary in contemporary society, that means that in social matters, people tend to see someone as EITHER "pretty", or "smart." It doesn't mean that their perceptions are true, just that these perceptions exist.

What is difficult about this?

And if you'll note, I never said this binary applied exclusively to women, now, did I?

 

[nomadthethird]

My feeling initially would be that it would not so much be about the politics of population control or spectacular image as about international diplomacy and interpersonal politics. Perhaps it is understood by some of these harsh regimes that having a 'pretty' woman (I accept the principle but the reality is debatable in most of these cases) as a foreign minister is strategically and diplomatically expedient and advantageous. That is, they have an advantage when it comes to negotiating (with) the typical 'male' characters from other nations they will be dealing with.

Of course you may well want to look into what problematic relations this reflects, but it is simply a matter of pragmatics yet again.

Your first paragraph is full of the obvious implications already made by both me and waffle.

What exactly is insightful about this point?

Yes, some people do things for reasons they deem "pragmatic" even though their reasons are often more complex, and always mediated by political and social factors that may not be avowed.

 

[jambo]

After Condoleeza, I wonder why so many far right countries increasingly select female (often pretty, see below) foreign ministers, Georgia's [she makes Buffy seem old) being the latest?

This is the substance of waffle's thesis / question so far.

Maybe the point is 'rather obvious' as you say but I had some questions to ask about that and some suggestions. I haven't been rude to anyone and I am genuinely interested because I think waffle might have something interesting to say.

You, on the other hand, are being a fucking tit.