How the World Sees England

[droid]

I gave them the Israeli side of the argument!

Aha.

I think I see the problem here.

 

[...]

It's not a question of right and wrong here Droid, it's not our argument, it's the question of whether children are being taught history rather than propaganda, or if that's impossible, are you getting both sets of propaganda taught in an impartial manner.

 

[...]

Oh, don't be stupid. If you want I was playing Devil's Advocate. Do you think children, or students, should not be allowed to hear a counter-argument, even if it is an Israeli one?

 

[droid]

lol. No, I was implying that your version of Israeli history would be so fantastical that even the most well informed student would express astonishment at its telling.

 

[...]

Grotesque displays of nationalism and flag-waving are not unique to the British, and it is not necessarily connected to colonialism. I think the Irish have some rather nasty expressions of nationalism if you look hard enough.

 

[...]

Well, that was not the case. I wasn't advocating for the Jewish state.

 

[droid]

It's not a question of right and wrong here Droid, it's not our argument, it's the question of whether children are being taught history rather than propaganda, or if that's impossible, are you getting both sets of propaganda taught in an impartial manner.

Sure, Im saying that if British students were taught the true nature and extent of Britain's past actions then British society would have the same attitude as the Germans or Japanese towards military nationalism.

 

[droid]

Grotesque displays of nationalism and flag-waving are not unique to the British, and it is not necessarily connected to colonialism.

I agree with the first part of this sentence. The second part seems dubious.

I think the Irish have some rather nasty expressions of nationalism if you look hard enough.

You dont need to look very hard in some places, but you will not find a street, park or house in the South festooned with Irish flags as a matter of course. Even this year, with all of it's connotations, national symbols are far less prevalent than I would have expected. Irish nationalism tends to be uneasily expressed... articulated though cultural achievements and anti-British sentiment rather than national pride.

 

[...]

Well, that's fine, you consider Britain to be analogous to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

Even despite that reading, the British public do not, in my experience, ever mention Empire as a moment in time they are proud of or should return to. It's erased to an extent that Nazi Germany is in Germany. You don't teach it because you're ashamed of it. Saying you're pro-Empire in the UK is seen as eccentric and almost career suicide unless you're a niche historian or writer.

 

[...]

You could say the same about Britain, though. It's rare to see a Jack flying.

 

[droid]

Well, thats not what I said, but how would you characterise the British Empire with its litany of racism, slavery and genocide? Benevolent, or one of the bloodiest in history?

And still, despite the claimed disavowal and lack of pride, the bombs continue to fall.

Niall Ferguson seems to doing OK btw.

 

[...]

But I'm not defending these things, or even worrying about Niall, I'm simply stating that we now live in a small country that does not express any obvious pride in its colonial history.

 

[droid]

But yet continues to invade, threaten and attack other countries at an alarming rate.

 

[...]

Hence the objection to the over-streched implication of Rick Stein in, what, Khartoum?

 

[...]

As part of NATO, of junior partner in other coalitions.

 

[...]

You seem to be more impressed by British power than even most jingoistic Tories are, right now.

 

[vimothy]

What's the argument that goes from Britain's continued foreign misadventures to it being overly nationalistic and not sufficiently ashamed of its past?

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

Maybe the reason we've got sidetracked by Rick Stein is because there's surely got to be a feeling amongst anyone who has grown up and been educated in British schools and watched British TV over the last 30 years that the British (and this is even if they know anything about it, as history teaching and its syllabus is such a moronic disaster) are anything BUT proud or comfortable with the colonial legacy. Cameron's comment comes in the slipstream of a trenchant Conservative historical revisionism that was turbo-charged by Niall Ferguson and Andrew Roberts, and their platform was treated as contentious and hotly disputed in British media and otherwise ignored, ridiculed or defamed in academic institutions. Now, I am not saying I am in their court on this, because I am not, but the reaction to them seemed to me to be loud and broad. The semi-educated British psyche is loaded with apologetics, not glorification, for Empire.

from 2014 (ie from the last 30 years):

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/07/26/britain-proud-its-empire/

By three to one, British people think the British Empire is something to be proud of rather than ashamed of – they also tend to think it left its colonies better off, and a third would like it to still exist

 

[droid]

What's the argument that goes from Britain's continued foreign misadventures to it being overly nationalistic and not sufficiently ashamed of its past?

That if Britain truly faced up to its horrific past (as the Japanese did) then committing those foreign misadventures (enabled by nationalism) would be abhorrent to the population and therefore untenable for governments.

At least the Russians are honest about it.

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

in my experience, you find plenty of people who definitely wouldnt DEFEND empire, as this is no longer the done thing, its a matter of what is deemed publicly acceptable, but they wouldnt CRITICISE it either, as that would be admitting guilt, and therefore some responsibility for something terrible, and why admit it was something terrible, when - as that yougov survey indicates - there was nothing to really be ashamed of. 'i mean, yeah some bad things were done, but plenty of good came of it, and everyone was doing it, just get over it, why bang on about the past, etc etc'. being 'non' something isnt the same as being 'anti'.