"Owning"

[baboon2004]

There's kind of a problem re: how much negative stuff that happens is it OK to portray as art, film, whatever. Like no matter how 'powerful' a holocaust movie is, should I really be watching it? There's so much difference between watching a movie and the horror of the actual event that can't actually be summarised at all. How much do real events just get reduced by this and become some cultural object for consumption. "Oh I read such and such a story it was so moving" :slanted: I dunno. But then there's the other side which is - to what extent can you inflate stuff so much to the extent that it becomes something taboo - the holocaust happened, and people were involved - it wasn't some force of nature, you should be able to talk about it. I dunno.

depends if the art in question adds anything to your understanding (emotional or intellectual_ of the subject. 'Holocaust is bad' movies - so the fuck what? Didn't need to watch Schindler's List to know that! And besides, it's a bit pants (as is the Polanski one actually - laughable acting).

Whereas Shoah is probably somewhat akin to going through a terrible event (13 hours?), so would be more likely to produce some greater understanding (I got an hour through and was really fucking depressed, and films don't usually do that to me).

As you say, genuinely taboo subjects are worth investigating with art. And I find most people understand the contents of their own head far less than they understand the Holocaust...

Interesting subject though - I've spent periods thinking about it....and the above is my conclusion (possibly)!

 

[zhao]

Ok, Im going to respond to this before it goes any further.



First of all, I described the person who wrote those notes as a cretin. If Id known it was you I mightve been more diplomatic.

I didnt call you uneducated. I said you should 'educate yourself', specifically in relation to Moore and the work in question.

I did call you a prick and a twat. Both times in response to cheap racial comments that had no relevance. 'White dude, 'caucasian person'? seriously? If ever I saw an attempt to 'stifle debate' thats it. You picked a terrible example, were called out on it, and then said that I couldnt be right because Im 'white'

I made the comment about From Hell because you had trouble with understanding a part of it. This IMO is directly relevant to your interpretation of this piece.



He's not my favourite comics writer.



Youd be exactly like someone who saw this scene from mad men and concluded that mad men was therefore racist - wrong:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

You havent even read Promethea have you (You never answered that question)? You downloaded that anthology and immediately decided to cast judgement. Did you even notice the caveat on the contents page?

So no, I dont feel i owe you an apology (as your original post requested). You've made spurious accusations of racism towards me for the third or fourth time, and when I responded to your cheap attempts to bring my genetics into the issue you then proceeded to tell me that I wasnt Asian enough to have experienced racism. Thats all way more offensive than a 'fuck you' IMO.

I do regret the profanities though, as its given you another excuse to spin your ego-driven victim fantasy where you crusade against white racist hetro hegemony on Dissensus, so Im more than happy to apologise to the rest of the board for my most unparlimentary language.

EDIT And might I add - you put 'only a moron would think that was racist' in quotes - I never said that. You also brought up the Black Athena thing AGAIN, and completely misrepresented me, accusing me of racism AGAIN.

Thats what bothers me most about all this TBH. Ive known you for years, and we've disagreed about plenty of stuff before, but now your being genuinely deceitful and using cheap and nasty methods to try and win arguments and smear me as a racist.

Good luck Zhao. Youre on my ignore list. i suggest you reciprocate.

from the get go, questioning this particular story was simply not OK to you.

you just started slamming me immediately.

you are so very much sure about the personal integrity of Alan Moore, that no scrutiny should be applied to anything with his name on it?

come on man.

a few others also disagree with my reading of the story as racist, but they either allowed that another perspective may also be at least partially valid, or suggested their own reading, without being... to use your own word, a prick about it.

and when i said "white person", it is because what you were saying just so happened to coincide with what i have heard from EVERY white person ever, including my closest friends and my current girlfriend: "it's all in your head." the circumstance may be different, but you should consider that the words are the same.

i never accused you of racism, but i do think you have, arguably this time, but in my estimation, during the Black Athena debate, under appreciated the breadth and depth of its legacy and effects.

but after all those disagreements, including the House Music thing, quite a silly thing really, that this comic, if you think about it, is to be the camel that breaks the straws back, and end our online conversations for ever?

 

[zhao]

i have read Promethea by the way. and none of it gives this story enough context to render it unproblematic.

 

[zhao]

On a basic level, as a creative person, you should be making rad stuff and letting yourself and people see/hear/eat it because it lets droid and zhao have a go at each other, and it's good fun.

it's all just interpretation, and different perspectives, stemming from different backgrounds, experiences, etc.

especially when it comes to the race issue.

a problem arises when one perspective thinks it is the only right one, and that there can not be any validity to another, opposing one.

but it's all pretty silly. this thing with Droid. as there are REAL fucking racists outside of both our windows! spreading hate!

 

[Slothrop]

and when i said "white person", it is because what you were saying just so happened to coincide with what i have heard from EVERY white person ever, including my closest friends and my current girlfriend: "it's all in your head."

What? Where does he say that?

The only generally thing Droid said about racism against people of asian descent is that he's directly experienced it himself. That's not exactly the same thing as "it's all in your head."

He was talking about one specific example which he thought wasn't a good example of that racism.

 

[nomadthethird]

I don't remember anyone telling you that you couldn't be Asian. If you didn't identify as Asian, someone calling you a ch*** is basically mistaking you for Asian- no?

Our racial identifications are not genetic. Droid keeps referring to his genetics as if they are what make him either Asian or white.

What makes you Asian or white is largely how society perceives you. I've never heard Droid ever, not once, on Dissensus, ever, in years, claim that he was even remotely Asian, until this discussion. Ok, so maybe this triggered bad memories, etc., I can imagine it would.

But the reason it seemed very spurious to mention is because it's not really relevant to whether the cartoon is offensive to Zhao, or whether an argument can be made that it's racist. Perhaps people consider Droid Asian, or somehow 'mixed' (a ridiculous idea in and of itself, since we're all mixed), before they ask him about his ethnic identifications- I don't know. But it's hardly weird for Zhao to have assumed that someone who has been on the board for years who never once identified himself as anything but white to be anything by white.

In the U.S., normally people consider racial identification reliant on cultural surroundings. For example, I was mostly raised by Italian-Americans, and my grandfather was from Italy and very dark skinned. But then my grandmother was actually from Denmark and was blonde. I think of myself as Italian-American because that's how I was raised, not because someone a few generations up was something. My dad's family is a whole other story of craziness that I probably couldn't keep track of if I tried (his grandfather had several families in several countries). If I were to think like that, I could probably consider myself black, since my grandfather's family is full of people with nappy hair and features that look quite African.
Since I'm lily white, and look nothing like them, I'm not seen that way. My brother looks a lot more like them and has darker skin. But we're both effectively "white."

 

[zhao]

What? Where does he say that?

ok not in those words. but the same meaning since the beginning: Zhao is wrong to find this problematic, it is clearly not racist, it's all in his head.

 

[gyto]

What makes you Asian or white is largely how society perceives you.

Agree with this

 

[massrock]

 

[Mr. Tea]

Wow. Real cool dude in that^ photo. :slanted:

 

[scottdisco]

natty threads indeed, he must go Abercrombie & Fitch

 

[massrock]

Or here.

 

[scottdisco]

Or here.

god damn you Massrock, spoiling my half-assed inaccurate aside w your "facts" and "research"

 

[zhao]

nice one massrock. a good example of what i was on about.

may be redundant but i'm going to say it for any lazy fuckers who only read the last page: a similar stereotyped caricature of many other ethnic groups would not be allowed in 2010.

 

[hucks]

nice one massrock. a good example of what i was on about.

may be redundant but i'm going to say it for any lazy fuckers who only read the last page: a similar stereotyped caricature of many other ethnic groups would not be allowed in 2010.

It's weird but I swear I'm increasingly seeing Indian characters in comedies as figures of fun cos of their HILARIOUS sing song accents. See, for instance, the head teacher in Glee (you know what I'm fucking talking about, don't lie), or one of the nerds in big Bang Theory (um...) or Phonejacker, which is a UK thing. And is utter, utter bilge.

And dear old Apu in the Simpsons, too. I mentioned him to my colleague, who is from from Delhi, and asked her if she found him offensive and she said, "Not really. He's more of a Sri Lankan stereotype".

None of which is to say that the t-shirt isn't filth, or not offensive or whatever. Totally agree w Zhao here.

 

[mistersloane]

Gave it a remix. I've always wanted a T-shirt that said this.

 

[woops]

Sloane! Shame on you. What's wrong with having sex with Chinese people?

 

[nomadthethird]

It's weird but I swear I'm increasingly seeing Indian characters in comedies as figures of fun cos of their HILARIOUS sing song accents. See, for instance, the head teacher in Glee (you know what I'm fucking talking about, don't lie), or one of the nerds in big Bang Theory (um...) or Phonejacker, which is a UK thing. And is utter, utter bilge.

I like the Indian accent a lot but it is basically a comic trope, so if I said that, someone would think I was being a douche, probably. Or a fetishist.

I've had several Indian men on the most random occasions tell me that they liked my "woice". A couple times on the phone, other times in person. I always wondered if maybe it was just a pick up line where they come from. But it seemed sincere.

Or maybe it was some kind of reverse anti-white voice-based discrimination...

 

[Mr. Tea]

I wonder if Indians think "the European accent" is cute, funny or whatever...?

 

[zhao]

Thank you for your feedback and sorry for the way you feel towards the
shirt. However, we will not be removing it from our website as it is one of
our best selling shirts.

Thank you,
-- David & Goliath

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