Vinyl dying (for DJ's)

[Slothrop]

Everyone else has either learned from their mates or attended music related university degrees or expensive tuition courses which probably only really exist in the big cities.

Not entirely - there was stuff in magazines, and information was being passed around on the internet one way or another long before youtube video tutorials...

But it is kind of an interesting thing that electronic music has gone so completely anti-specialization. You don't often seem to see (or hear about) "mixing lessons" or "sound design lessons" (ie someone sitting with you and explaining why your bass sounds weak and what you can do about it for £15 an hour), which would be a really obvious thing to have by analogy with guitar lessons, drum lessons etc. You don't often hear about people deliberately teaming up with someone who can handle the technical side but doesn't have such a creative spark, probably because it would involve both sides to admitting to not being a "complete" producer. You get a lot of people who are obsessed with the importance of doing all your own sound design, never using presets, never using premade loops etc.

It kind of feels like the final step in an evolution away from the Sinatra style traditional pop where pretty much every element - music, lyrics, orchestration, singing, instrumental performance, recording, mixing, mastering - was handled by an individual specialist.

 

[Elijah]

Dizzee didnt make 3 tunes lol. Made like 80% of BIDC and Showtime have you lost your mind?

 

[alex]

Going back to what owen said above regarding DJ Technology, I know it's an old point, however it's ever relevant. The 'traktor' thing is definitely to blame for the lack of awareness towards DJ'ing and collecting music in general.

Granted, in our circles we all know people who mix with vinyl/mix ourselves with vinyl, however there are (as some may find hard to believe, I couldn't at first) some who are yet to ever experience putting a vinyl on the deck and pressing play. Where I'm heading with this exactly is all down to one experience I had last week @ a friends who was using one of those complete, in the box contraptions designed by them. He couldn't work out how I was managing to mix in time without a.) lining up the bpm's dead on b.) looking at the screen c.) using this little knob thing (which I'm guessing is basically the sync thing).

It's a boring topic for most, it was to me until this happened, as obviously he's new to DJ'ing, but it struck me then that most people relitively new to DJ'ing will go down this route of 'buy traktor day 1, day 2 mix perfectly in time'

Luckily this guy has had the realisation that if he want's to continue to seriously persue DJ'ing, he'll have to learn on vinyl, (or at least with CD's), for practicality.

My question really is, how far can you blag it? Has any DJ (hate sponge celebrity types obv excluded) ever made it to the big lineups without ever having touched a record? (excluding producers who are there cause of how big their tunes are)

Obviously Traktor was made with the intention of time/space saving, and I'm sure this argument has been done to death on all four corners of the internet, but please, PLEASE someone offer me a worthwhile example of it being used? R/Hawtin has impressed me on ONE video, that last's 2 minutes, where he's playing to 300 people max (can't stand this whole 20,000+ people bollox, how can u connect with the crowd? impossible), other than that, I can't think of any instance where I've thought...'ah that's just what this party needs, a traktor DJ'

 

[Slothrop]

^ that's mad! Next people will be writing beats using drum machines and samplers without ever having touched a real drum kit.

 

[alex]

okay I did set myself up for that. It's a question of authenticity I suppose, which is kinda down to opinion really. Oh well. If the party's banging who cares eh?

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

is there anything about ghostproducing/engineering in dubstep?

 

[owengriffiths]

Dizzee didnt make 3 tunes lol. Made like 80% of BIDC and Showtime have you lost your mind?

I suppose the album tracks slipped my mind (not that I know who produced them anyway), but as far as I remember white label wise it was just Ho, Go, Wheel, I love You. Suffice to say if Discogs has anything to say there are quite a few producers who released three amazing tracks then disappeared off the face of the earth.

 

[owengriffiths]

is there anything about ghostproducing/engineering in dubstep?

I'm guessing 2003 era Hatcha tunes were heavily assisted by Benny Ill, otherwise why would he wait another five years to release anything else.

 

[Elijah]

I suppose the album tracks slipped my mind (not that I know who produced them anyway), but as far as I remember white label wise it was just Ho, Go, Wheel, I love You. Suffice to say if Discogs has anything to say there are quite a few producers who released three amazing tracks then disappeared off the face of the earth.

Sometimes, but especially with whites they are under aliases a lot of the time by other producers. Sometimes they may only use the name a few times

 

[alex]

tbh I was under the impression wiley made go, hoe etc..

 

[huffafc]

Obviously Traktor was made with the intention of time/space saving, and I'm sure this argument has been done to death on all four corners of the internet, but please, PLEASE someone offer me a worthwhile example of it being used? R/Hawtin has impressed me on ONE video, that last's 2 minutes, where he's playing to 300 people max (can't stand this whole 20,000+ people bollox, how can u connect with the crowd? impossible), other than that, I can't think of any instance where I've thought...'ah that's just what this party needs, a traktor DJ'

traktor or ableton can (and often are) easy ways to avoid learning skills that djs spent hundreds of hours acquiring. and, also, there are obviously a lot of lazy, bad, boring djs out there (maybe more than ever).

but...

these programs can do things that are impossible (or requiring millsian skill levels) to do with vinyl (mix in key across wide tempo ranges, complex looping and cue-ing, live sampling, 4+ simultaneous tracks). which is not to say that they are superior tools, but only that they provide unique, relatively new possibilities for djs. very, very few djs seem to take much advantage of these things. (and as skilled as hawtin is, i just can't get down with his taste these days.)

but...

IMHO surgeon's sets are, at least, one great example of someone doing it right with digital djing:
i have a background in photo, and lived through the whole sale move from chemical to digital, which produced very similar debates. the problem with the authenticity argument is that authenticity itself has to be constructed in relation to some specific moment, some specific technology, it's never an absolute. rather, i think as a technology gets older (turntables, chemical photography) people develop more sophisticated, counterintuitive, unique ways of using it. and, conversely, when new technologies like traktor (or photoshop) come out, a lot of people first use them as simply easier ways to reproduce what another technology like turntables (or chemical photography) can already do. and that's never going to be that interesting.

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

tbh I was under the impression wiley made go, hoe etc..

i dont think those dizzee tunes sound much like wiley. wileys tunes from that period were all about the synths and kiddie-like melodies and fx etc. the dizzee tracks were much more about rhythm and weird/more layered/complex stuff going on rhythmically in general imo. id even go so far as to say dizzee's 02-03 tracks>>>wiley's 02-03 tracks. theres also something more aggressive/energetic about dizzees tracks.

 

[Slothrop]

okay I did set myself up for that. It's a question of authenticity I suppose, which is kinda down to opinion really. Oh well. If the party's banging who cares eh?

I dunno, the whole thing just always comes across like an absolutely textbook subcultural capital manouevre - like there are a load of people who've invested a lot of time, effort and money in learning to beatmatch on turntables and acquiring a big vinyl collection, and they're trying desperately to hang on to the subcultural status that they've acquired as a result which is now being threatened by some kid who can do basically the same job with a laptop and a load of mp3s.

 

[tom lea]

I can't think of any instance where I've thought...'ah that's just what this party needs, a traktor DJ'

i completely agree.

 

[Sectionfive]

Went back University last year and turned out I was the first one ever to bring records to the 'dj soc'. Felt like something out of jurassic park, most of them didn't even use headphones. What harm though.

Agree with Slothrop to a point but also Theo Parrish in what value beyond convenience if it just mimicking the old stuff. That's why that EZ video was so great.

 

[Elijah]

Its mad that people are just clocking EZ. He has been doing that since forever what have people been listening to for the last 12 years?

 

[Sectionfive]

I know and we had other clips in the DJs who earn thread but the Boiler Room clip pulled it all together and was still such a progression from Pure Garage etc. And had the benefit of not being recorded on someone's mobile in 2007.

Innovation before your eyes.

 

[wise]

I dunno, the whole thing just always comes across like an absolutely textbook subcultural capital manouevre - like there are a load of people who've invested a lot of time, effort and money in learning to beatmatch on turntables and acquiring a big vinyl collection, and they're trying desperately to hang on to the subcultural status that they've acquired as a result which is now being threatened by some kid who can do basically the same job with a laptop and a load of mp3s.

completely agree
sold all my vinyl, now i've got a harddrive full of mp3s and flacs and traktor, I can beatmix for days with headphones and hold mixes till the tunes run out but why tax the ears when you don't need to?

convenience is good

 

[alex]

convenience is good

I dunno..cause Dj’ing is actually enjoyable? What the fuck is engaging about pressing a couple of buttons n listening to a crystal clear mix as a result? If that does move you then fine init, traktor’s served it’s purpose.

Might aswell go to the next step & remove the human altogether init, surely there’s some sort of AI in development where they’re working replacing the DJ and playing a tracktor sync’ed set based purely on genre? (Could even put it a selection where it mixes based on an actual human DJ, but you know BETTER obviously, since it’s a machine..)

 

[Slothrop]

I dunno..cause Dj’ing is actually enjoyable? What the fuck is engaging about pressing a couple of buttons n listening to a crystal clear mix as a result? If that does move you then fine init, traktor’s served it’s purpose.

I dunno, maybe people actually enjoy the music or something?

Might aswell go to the next step & remove the human altogether init, surely there’s some sort of AI in development where they’re working replacing the DJ and playing a tracktor sync’ed set based purely on genre? (Could even put it a selection where it mixes based on an actual human DJ, but you know BETTER obviously, since it’s a machine..)

Yeah, because obviously the only thing that distinguishes a good DJ from a bad DJ is the ability to get two records playing at the same speed. FFS the fact that a task is easy to automate more or less by definition means it isn't a particularly interesting or creative part of the art.