if New York can die so can London

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
i know its the internet and its difficult sometimes but can we also learn to distinguish btwen times when i am in charactr and striking deliberately ridiculous exaggerated poses for rhetorical effect (99% of the time) and when i am being earnest.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
well, a couple things. first, what luka + you all are talking about strikes me as just another way to say gentrification.

second, skewering hipsters...9 times of out 10 it feels like an act of self defense, a way to to impart credibility and distance oneself from. honestly the older I get the sillier it seems, given that most people outside this spectrum of subcultures would be very hard-pressed to differentiate between hipsters and the people who profess to hate them...like trying to explain the difference between grindcore + death metal (or house + techno, to put it in more dissensus-friendly terms) to someone who's never heard either...I mean whatever, but either way "hipsters" (and the even hipper more self-aware people who talk shit about them) are very much are not the root cause of gentrification. they're just a symptom.
 

outraygeous

Well-known member
I always ask myself, where are all the Londoners going? Or where are they?

Being from London seems to be a rare thing these days

(you know being born and lived in London all your life.)
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
i agree with pretty much all of that padraig actually. i always cringe when i read articls skewering hipsters in a really hamfistd way and i regret mentioning them in my original post a little bit. although having said that it was quite a shock going back to london and seeing how pervasive they had become, particualrly as i weaved through the fixies on brick lane. swears always had a nice line in defending hipsters and i found it persuasive, up to a point. but yes gentrification is a major issue, not the only one, but you can put a lot of subissues under that umbrealla.... i agree with that....
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
how dyou mean?

be interesting to see if the recent waves of say, brazilian/somali/whoever migrants in london has an impact on the music.
 
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luka

Well-known member
Staff member
also i was a bit influenced by reading el-ps twitter. he was moaning about the absence of native new yorkers. so i guess it is an issue there as weell as london ray. he was quite funny actually. gumdrops i think you are being dlibereately mischeivious. he is obv moaning about middle england invading the inner city and trying to act like they know whats going on. im all for snobbery of that kind. it makes me laugh.
 
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gumdrops

Well-known member
i think londoners are always desperate to leave arent they? if they can facilitate it that is. must be the same with new yorkers.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
its happening across all hardcoreish music, people like danny brown lil b, OF, would have been unimaginable in hip hop 10 years ago, apparently there's loads of hipster black metal too.
and no offense bro but I absolutely can't stand enormous blanket statements about the state of music (or anything really) like this...I mean FFS there's just as much true kvlt/primal/raw etc black metal there as ever, more than ever really. my finger's not as much on the pulse of current rap but I'm sure there's as just as much hardcore stuff there as well, even it's not burning up the charts or whatever. this always happens, in all forms of extreme/hardcore/underground etc music. people complained about the Minutemen + whoever making hardcore too artsy, they complained about the Locust ruining grindcore + power violence + whatever...fucking doom metal + stoner etc was super hip in the first part of the last decade, I remember going to see Rwake or Warhorse or somebody ca. 2003 and the place being wall to wall white belts + Spock haircuts (remember those?) - not the to mention the impossibly cool artiness of Sunn O))) etc - yet some how deeply deeply unhip grizzled men with gnarly beards have managed to keep making thoroughly uncool but totally awesome doom metal records...

the moral being, the underground survives. I guarantee you right now there are just as many filthy noise merchants, acid techno free party guys, mobb deep wannabees, shitty d-beat bands on so on out there on the fringes of culture, posting their demos on bandcamp or doing super kvlt releases with editions of 20 or whatever, as ever...
 

Corpsey

call me big papa
i know its the internet and its difficult sometimes but can we also learn to distinguish btwen times when i am in charactr and striking deliberately ridiculous exaggerated poses for rhetorical effect (99% of the time) and when i am being earnest.
:D
 

Corpsey

call me big papa
The hipster rappers thing is quite interesting, is it something to do with an increasing number of black americans belonging to the middle class/suburban world? Odd Future, for example, seem to be a very suburban group of kids.

I suppose the internet must also have had a big influence in terms of spreading cultures that would previously have been more locally situated.

Quite amusing to think of East London hipster culture being taken up by people in exotic countries - a sort of reverse Diplo effect?
 

daddek

Well-known member
and no offense bro but I absolutely can't stand enormous blanket statements about the state of music (or anything really) like this...I
yeh well u shouldnt get worked up because i wasnt really bemoaning the state of anything. I like all the rap groups i listed and the only metal ive listened to in years is the newer arty stuff.
Also when I said everyone i know is in taste and looks a hipster, i was absolutely including myself.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
i would also like to state that i disagre with padraigs last statement. i think there ae times when a scene is very healthy and times when it is moribund.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
nah luka I didn't think you were having a particular go at hipsters really it's just a topic like this always encourages people to be like "goddamn hipsters". I dunno but I'd hazard you + are at least roughly of an age, maybe having gotten to the point where a lot of that kind of thing seems increasingly ridiculous. I think a great deal of it is just people being uncomfortable with themselves, dealing with guilt, etc or at least it was for me...like when I was super punk rock and lived in squats + so on the people I looked down on most on were the punks who paid rent and had regular jobs, who in turn looked down on me + mine, it's always to distance yourself from what you're closest to that you're afraid of being, if you get me.

also I would agree that one unfortunate byproduct of gentrification is the killing off of just about any music/art/etc scene + just vibe that made somewhere cool in the first place. it's one of those enduring ironies that by the very act of developing an area that is "cool" you always destroy what made it cool in the first place.
 

daddek

Well-known member
The hipster rappers thing is quite interesting, is it something to do with an increasing number of black americans belonging to the middle class/suburban world?
i wouldve thought so. It also just an internet society effect, things like tumblr spread hipster/bohemian/skatekid values to teenagers all over the net.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
this is true. it applis i think to journalism as well as gentrification. i think there are intersting parallels. (this is in response to padraig by the way)
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
I've never been part of what you could call an 'underground scene' but in terms of 'hipsters' living in inner London (which seems almost to be a synonym for young/ish white middle class people who like music and clubbing), it does seem that they're overwhelmingly not from London originally. I don't think I know anyone who was born in London and still lives here. In fact thinking about it, probably the only person I know well who was born here is an ex of mine who now lives in Edinburgh. White Londoners are born and grow up here but move away as adults, and people from elsewhere in the country (to say nothing of elsewhere in the world) move in.

i know its the internet and its difficult sometimes but can we also learn to distinguish btwen times when i am in charactr and striking deliberately ridiculous exaggerated poses for rhetorical effect (99% of the time) and when i am being earnest.
Luka knows the importance of not being earnest...
 
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FairiesWearBoots

Well-known member
I think part of the problem is there's no underground anymore, the net has virtually destroyed that, London is victim like anywhere else in that regard
 
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