How England Sees Itself

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Every culture of all time are racist, so it's kind NATURAL and OK to be racist."
It's an enormous leap (if not contortion) to extrapolate from "x has always existed" to "x is good".
It's clear that ancient racism didn't affect the whole world in the way that racism does now because the world wasn't joined up in the same way then. That doesn't mean it was somehow better racism. Basically Zhao you're arguing for a division into "good" (or at least acceptable) racism and "bad" racism, it seems a bit of a dangerous distinction to me, especially when someone appoints themself the arbiter of said distinction.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
and nice try at playing it off, Tea. But i've been on this board a long time, and have heard you comment on very many number of occasions around this subject, and i am willing to bet that at least a part of what i wrote above, or maybe even a good deal of it, describes pretty well what goes on in your head.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
It's an enormous leap (if not contortion) to extrapolate from "x has always existed" to "x is good".

it would indeed be an enormous leap if someone actually did that, but no one ever said "racism is good".

however i think what Tea has been saying with his constant: "It has existed since the beginning of time. The situation in the world today is no different. It's all the same as it ever was." etc., etc., etc., is that we shouldn't make TOO much of a fuss over racism today.




Basically Zhao you're arguing for a division into "good" (or at least acceptable) racism and "bad" racism, it seems a bit of a dangerous distinction to me, especially when someone appoints themself the arbiter of said distinction.

A distinction between biologically evolved distrust of faces which look different from our own (phenomenon proven to exist) and RACISM as a world shaping ideology is very useful.

as is a distinction between the Masai thinking they are the most beautiful people on earth and the Namibian genocide.

that's why people make these distinctions (i'm so very not the only one): because they are useful.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
it would indeed be an enormous leap if someone actually did that, but no one ever said "racism is good".
Read what I said again.

"however i think what Tea has been saying with his constant: "It has existed since the beginning of time. The situation in the world today is no different. It's all the same as it ever was." etc., etc., etc., is that we shouldn't make TOO much of a fuss over racism today."
I think it's perfectly possible (and uncontroversial) to say that racism, poverty, hunger and lots of other bad things have been around for a long time and still think it's vitally important that people do their best to fight against them.

A distinction between biologically evolved distrust of faces which look different from our own (phenomenon proven to exist) and RACISM as a world shaping ideology is very useful.
Yes but when a civilisation such as Rome referred to those outside its walls as barbarians and believed that it was perfectly acceptable to enslave them which of the above categories is it in?
 

comelately

Wild Horses
Obviously context is king, and I can completely see the potential utility of understanding the historical and intellectual context of the structural and institutional racism that exists in the world today, and naming that. On the other hand, I'm not sure that reserving the name 'racism' exclusively for this is really on. As I understand it, we're all pretty much hard-wired to subconciously notice the skin colour of someone we encounter for the first time before even their gender; I don't think stating that implies that this is a good or bad thing. From my personal perspective, it seems like a great pity. I don't think stating it diminishes the injustice caused by the effects of racism as intellectualised by Europeans either.

All that said, I thought the Witchfinder General strawman was pretty disgraceful, if amusingly ironic.

It's an enormous leap (if not contortion) to extrapolate from "x has always existed" to "x is good".

It's an enormous leap from a strict rational point of view, but from a human point of view.....not so much.
 

luka

Well-known member
not accusing tea of racism but i have also picked up on his obsession with the egyptians nubian slaves. it does seem tremendously important to him.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"It's an enormous leap from a strict rational point of view, but from a human point of view.....not so much."
But here we're at least trying (while recognising the problems) to be rational aren't we? We can't excuse stupid arguments on the grounds that other stupid people have made them before.
 

comelately

Wild Horses
But here we're at least trying (while recognising the problems) to be rational aren't we? We can't excuse stupid arguments on the grounds that other stupid people have made them before.

Noone can be rational forever. Everyone makes that jump pretty much constantly, consciously or unconsciously.
 

Sick Boy

All about pride and egos
Not gonna jump in too hard right now because I have to run, but we might be getting a little mislead viewing racism, in its current manifestations, as strictly structural, institutional, and ideological in a "world-shaping" sense. This a kind of high-modernist top-down critique, based in oppositions between appearance and reality, latent and manifest, signifier and signified, etc, that has sort of been dismantled and declared redundant by "scholars and thinkers worldwide" ever since the 70's when they realized that all these notions basically had collapsed, while they weren't looking, right into the sphere of the social and decentralized all possibilities of critical distance and historicization.

Post-modernism, guys. Post-structuralism. Post-Marxism. Post everything.
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
when a civilisation such as Rome referred to those outside its walls as barbarians and believed that it was perfectly acceptable to enslave them which of the above categories is it in?

it would be somewhere between the biological distrust of difference and today's Racism.

but that is beside the point. THE POINT is:

in the context of a conversation about neo-colonialism, about the continued rape and mass murder of the "3rd world", about the pride of colonialists, about pandemic, world-shaping racism which never went away, and about the overt revival of eugenics related race-theories,

in the context of this conversation, all this Mr. Tea does is repeatedly claim, over and over: "well it's nothing new is it? it's always existed in every part of the world. and everyone in history has kept African slaves!"

so in the context of this conversation, banging on the way he does about this shit is fucking cuntish and i personally think, revealing of his deep seated position on the issue.
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
"it would be somewhere between the biological distrust of difference and today's Racism."
But obviously much closer to the latter. My take on it is that this kind of systematic oppression usually occurs when two societies meet that are in vastly different stages of technological development (particularly as regards weaponry). This is because a) it's easier to oppress and enslave someone if you can convince yourself that they are basically semi-human savages and, b) it's easier to oppress and enslave someone if you can beat them in a fight with one hand tied behind your back.
I imagine that this is pretty much how the Romans saw semi-naked German tribes who lived in mud huts and painted themselves blue and the same occurred again when the English rocked up in the US/Africa/Australia etc The after effects of that latter example are still being felt now as that was when much of the modern world began to take shape.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
But obviously much closer to the latter.

maybe more in the middle or even closer to the former. Because the Romans did not come at all close to setting up elaborate exploitative machinery on other continents designed to work for many generations, generating wealth for Romans while depleting and impoverishing the colonies; Romans did not engineer their CITIES to specifically keep dark skinned citizens in quarantine, with no jobs/schools/hospitals, and full of narcotics; etc. etc. etc.

Romans did not create a "third world".

might not be the best example but it's the difference between murder and genocide.
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
I have been singling out Mr. Tea because of all the members of this board, i judge the content of his character to be the best representative of the average educated Western mind and a pretty damn good measure of popular opinion among an entire subsection of society, from the happy-go-lucky cheerful disposition to his subscription of most-if-not-all the prevailing attitudes, and support of most-if-not-all the hegemonic ideologies of the day. Over many years he has exhibited a whole hearted and unquestioning belief in the goodness of things like Rationalism (religion is for sheeple!), Progress/Modernity (toilette paper is better than soap and water!), Capitalism (not perfect but it's the best we've got!), West-centrism (we cause/have problems but hey, at least we don't rape babies to cure AIDS and throw acid on our sisters' faces!), etc.

Most importantly, with regard to our topic at hand, which is pandemic, systematic, structural, enduring violence, exploitation and injustice on a global scale, he repeatedly makes proclamations -- "racism is nothing new, nor specific to colonialism, everyone has had African slaves, etc." -- which all firmly rest on the dominant philosophical position of the perpetrator countries, a position which in its fundament can be boiled down to 3 words: might is right. The purest expression of which is: *shrug*. And perhaps: "Just thank the lord that we're on the winning team LOL!".

According to those like Tea (which in my estimation is the vast majority in Europe and the US), history is the story of people with bigger armies and better guns decimating and exploiting those with smaller armies and weaker guns, and: "it isn't pretty, but that's the way it goes." *shrug*. And often with the addition (but not sure if Tea thinks this): "we've got bigger armies and better guns in the first place probably because… we're that much more clever, innit" --- Well not exactly, because it can be easily demonstrated that military and technological advantage is always purely circumstantial, accrued over time.

And time and again, they will use extremely distorted and stupid comparisons to nature-on-television to justify man's systematic violence: "look at the lions and zebras! and how the chimps go at each other!" ---- Well no, the violence of lions and chimps is for survival, but they do not build gold palaces and subway systems for themselves from the blood and sweat of millions of other animals over hundreds of years or engage in genocide.

But of course, in a way, they have a point. For that IS the way a lot of recent human history as we know it has been shaped. But the simple, uncritical *shrug* and acceptance of it as simply "the way it is", at least to me, is the single most sad and depressing thing in the world. For it equals a cowardly acceptance of that most vile aspect of human possibilities, a cynical embrace of that most ugly part of ourselves, as us, and as our very "nature".

People who think like this are the ones who voted against the end of slavery.

And they are my enemy in this life.
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
Zhao is, I think, the only overt racist on this forum.

well you are mistaken, craner.

for no, i do not think, and have never thought, that Europeans are possessive of a greater capacity for evil than any other culture/ethnic group.

During the modernizing process every form of violence, exploitation, and oppressive measure typical of colonialism was applied on its own shores: in the miserable and dehumanizing factories of Britain, and of course in Ireland, its European colony.

And yes, the Han in China has had a horrendous record of human rights violations, itself an imperialist power in Asia for thousands of years prior to European conquest, marginalizing and destroying minority cultures.

But you know what? In a thread about China's history of crimes against humanity, i WOULD SURELY NOT repeatedly, and exclusively say "well everyone has blood on their hands don't they? look at the Mongols! look at the Romans! and EVERYONE has bullied their neighbors!"

oooooooo guilt! it doesn't feel nice! let us as quickly as possible absolve ourselves of it!

no, only chicken-shit weaklings with the moral fortitude of turds do that.
 
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craner

Beast of Burden
Good grief, that's the second insult in a row you've taken two weeks to respond to.

Are you really sure you wouldn't do this:

But you know what? In a thread about China's history of crimes against humanity, i WOULD SURELY NOT repeatedly, and exclusively say "well everyone has blood on their hands don't they? look at the Mongols! look at the Romans! and EVERYONE has bullied their neighbors!"

Because, for some reason, I feel certain that you would say something along these lines, and probably divert the argument to Europe, if not America. (Israel is not really your style.)
 

zhao

there are no accidents
Good grief, that's the second insult in a row you've taken two weeks to respond to.

last time i was on was 5 days ago, when i fell deathly ill (bad sinus infection - had a cold but was djing and stupidly smoked a giant spliff and some cigarrettes - last time ever to make that mistake)

Are you really sure you wouldn't do this:

Because, for some reason, I feel certain that you would say something along these lines, and probably divert the argument to Europe, if not America. (Israel is not really your style.)

you don't know me at all do you? have you paid NO attention these past 8 years?

i fucking HATE HATE HATE the Han Chinese ethnocentricity, disinterest in anything outside its borders, and infinitely annoying sense of entitlement.

i would be the first to pile onto the long list of heinous Chinese crimes against humanity, because the self-interested and small-minded average Chinese spends every waking minute disavowing it.

there is much of Chinese culture i do have boundless respect and admiration for, mostly in the area of classic poetry, painting, music, and philosophy, but there isn't much about the modern Chinese mentality i endorse. In fact, i am more afraid than you at the prospect of an upcoming Chinese dominated century.
 
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