Hip-Hop 2012

[Corpsey]

Not to mention that you hate Roc Marciano.

At the moment with rap it seems to me that the 'trap' style is so dominant (maybe I'm off here, could just be what I happen to be listening to?), it feels like it will never end. But then you look back and every era had its dominant style which everyone copied. So what's next?

Side-note/question: I've never really bothered listening to Kanye (and Drake, to a lesser extent), but I'm wondering if it's Kanye who really opened the doors for 'cloud rap'/ASAP Rocky style production getting into the cult-mainstream of rap music? I'm assuming '808 and Heartbreaks' had a big role in this - cos everyone talks about it.

Basically I'm thinking I probably should listen to Kanye. I feel an obligation.

I need loads of gaps filling in, to. I have no right to pontificate about rap music (probably) when I haven't ever listened to a full UGK album, right?

 

[Corpsey]

BTW, has the New York thing got anything to do with its supposed ''Disneylandification'' in recent years? By which I mean gentrification? Although obviously this isn't what its like for everyone in New York but I take it the city has fundamentally changed in character in the last decade?

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

the clean up prob has a lot to do with it but from where im standing (in london admittedly) i think it was just that NY had its run and it had to come to an end at some point. new york will always have a certain cache i think and the new york hip hop sound will never really get old (its always going to be seen as 'pure' rap) but no city can dominate/innovate the music it invented forever can it? (see - techno and detroit, house and chicago, jazz and new orleans etc etc).

 

[Corpsey]

Also I think that Atlanta/Down South style, which is all about synths rather than samples, is much easier/cheaper to produce for up and coming producers. I mean, to produce WELL. I mean, you listen to 'God Forgives, I Don't' and you can tell which beats a bedroom producer could aspire to recreate - it's ''Hold Me Back'', the generic trap banger beat. The beats with sumptuous string-sets and saxophones would be difficult to recreate cheaply without them sounding laughably shit.

 

[Corpsey]

Anyone heard the ASAP Mob tape? I've heard about three tracks, it's getting panned all over the place though.


I really like this beat but ASAP Ferg is so painfully average. He's not even completely shit, he's just mutton dressed up as lamb.


DIPSET CLOUD RAP WILL BRING NYC BACK!

 

[Corpsey]

UNICYCLE LIFE COMING SOON

 

[tom lea]

Reminds me of when I used to like a) Copywrite and b) UK Hip-Hop. This must be what a junkie feels like when they revisit an old neighbourhood where they used to pick up. Only worse, because there never was a high.

yeah i used to like copywrite too. first step is admitting it.

i never liked uk hip-hop tho, mostly cos the kids i knew who were into it were the most close-minded little fuckers you'll ever meet. slagging off grime for not being real music when they wanted everything to sound like a mecca and the soul brother rip-off. warm beer comparison is so spot on.

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

Also I think that Atlanta/Down South style, which is all about synths rather than samples, is much easier/cheaper to produce for up and coming producers. I mean, to produce WELL. I mean, you listen to 'God Forgives, I Don't' and you can tell which beats a bedroom producer could aspire to recreate - it's ''Hold Me Back'', the generic trap banger beat. The beats with sumptuous string-sets and saxophones would be difficult to recreate cheaply without them sounding laughably shit.

yeah - i think by the late 90s sampling/boom bap just got too obsessed with refinement (plus it just got kind of plodding and those self serious kinds of beats could never last forever) so synths just made rap production accessible to the kids without loads of records, etc cos you didnt even really need to be able to play them well. you didnt even need the perceived skill of being good at sampling like premier, pete rock, etc who set the bar a bit high for a lot of up and comers. but its not like people stopped sampling - timbaland sampled a lot.

all that said, i love wu tang forever, which is like the ultimate example of self important 90s new york rap.

 

[CrowleyHead]

@ Corpsey; I actually LOVE Marciano, it's just very very easy to make fun of him. If you ever look at him in the "Chewbacca" video, he's the most unemotive person in the world. His music makes total sense in headphones, or whatever, but to actually watch HIM do his rapping, it's one of the more awkward moments ever.

But no, I think gentrification HAS killed off a lot of NYC. I always ramble about this, but there are two KINDS of New York City Rap... The New York Rap of New Yorkers, and the general percieved notion of what New Yorkers leave. For example, Ron Browz period of auto-tuned hooks were massive hits in NYC. Obviously enough, those aren't considered 'classics', but it's a demonstration of things that New Yorkers want and need, and support. Meanwhile, everyone else in the world believes every New Yorker's single should be produced by Alchemist instead of Swizz Beats tin drums... Swizz Beats tin drums SHIT on Alchemist, because they're about what we want.

Over time though, with the mainstream of rappers so caught up in trying to achieve a success they cannot (because NYC rap effectively died in the early to mid 00's after the mixtape rap bubble burst), we have the two forms of underground maliase: False NYC-Retro-Active Pristine HEAP-HAAAP (See: Statik Selektah & Alchemist supported artists) or the new post-A$AP/Mishka mentality of drawing millions of imagery/fashion/musical influences (via the internet) and making it into this unidentifiable mush rap. Rocky managed to work this very well, but now it's become really tedious to watch these mediocre rich kids all play at being rappers with no understanding of how to rap well. Underachievaz are the only people walking both of these undergrounds like a tight-rope as well as Joey Bada$$ (who I just can't take seriously, because it's just a kid hopelessly copying the 90s, while rapping over 90s beats. There's nothing I haven't heard.)

A big part of it though is yeah, New York has become this multimedia industry capital where people from all over the world move to redefine themselves and become a new person... So the natives have to get shoved off into the ether. Nobody talks about it, but the murder rate is actually raising in the 'darker' inner city places like Red Hook, because native born New Yorkers are becoming caged in as more and more, transplants force us to disperse out of the city. Also with the economic crash, non-media/arts personnel have become a dime a dozen, so even as far out as Long Island (where I was living until 2010), there's a complete flux of young people getting the fuck out of dodge, older folks just dying off, and nobody coming in to say "This is a nice place to live".

It's not even that New York Rap "Had It's Run", because admittedly, we maintained this facade of being the superior rap culture for well over a decade... It's the fact that New York doesn't have a culture anymore, because it's constantly getting told that anything native and home-grown isn't good enough. 9/10 times, it is, and that's sad, but there's also no room for ingenuity due to... I want to say, the cultural and sociological pressures of what "New York Hip-Hop is SUPPOSED to be".

 

[Corpsey]

Thanks Crowley, that's an interesting/insightful reply right thur.

I've been listening to these Disrespectful radio podcasts (David Drake plus two other Chicago guys), very interesting and making me realise how little I know about rap generally, but they talk about 'the chicago sound' and 'miami sound' and I'd like to know what those sounds are.

 

[Esp]

And to think I used to hate on Westwood for playing Rocafella tracks instead of Task Force. *whole body shudder*

I spent way too large a part of my late teens, stoned somewhere, listening to really average rappers with horrible cadence rhyme 'lyrical' with 'metaphysical'. I cant imagine what it would be like to grow up in NY/Atlanta/LA etc where at least a couple of the people around you might be decent rappers.

The worst part of the UK Hip Hop scene was the whole 'we would be big but the system/industry is keeping us down' attitude - when in reality most of the music was just a bit too drab and derivative to grab peoples attention.

 

[Corpsey]

Its Murda by Klash is the one UK hip hop tune I really like. There's probably others actually but that's all that springs to mind. Witness I suppose.

Grime just blew it all out of the water, though. I mean, you hear 'Boy in Da Corner' and suddenly even Roots Manuva sounds boring.

 

[CrowleyHead]

Thanks Crowley, that's an interesting/insightful reply right thur.

I've been listening to these Disrespectful radio podcasts (David Drake plus two other Chicago guys), very interesting and making me realise how little I know about rap generally, but they talk about 'the chicago sound' and 'miami sound' and I'd like to know what those sounds are.

Regional Rap is the most shocking thing in the world sometimes. It's like, when my friend Walt played me actual massive Detroit Hits (since he's from Michigan), I'd expected it to be like, Slum Village-like stuff. That whole notion that everyone from Detroit basically makes pseudo-NYC-Circa-91 Rap. And then you realize there's a whole world of regular Detroit "Street Rap" that doesn't sound like that, and you realize you've been spoon-fed freaks and been told they represent the entirety of a city.

 

[Blackdown]

@ Corpsey; I actually LOVE Marciano, it's just very very easy to make fun of him. If you ever look at him in the "Chewbacca" video, he's the most unemotive person in the world. His music makes total sense in headphones, or whatever, but to actually watch HIM do his rapping, it's one of the more awkward moments ever.

But no, I think gentrification HAS killed off a lot of NYC. I always ramble about this, but there are two KINDS of New York City Rap... The New York Rap of New Yorkers, and the general percieved notion of what New Yorkers leave. For example, Ron Browz period of auto-tuned hooks were massive hits in NYC. Obviously enough, those aren't considered 'classics', but it's a demonstration of things that New Yorkers want and need, and support. Meanwhile, everyone else in the world believes every New Yorker's single should be produced by Alchemist instead of Swizz Beats tin drums... Swizz Beats tin drums SHIT on Alchemist, because they're about what we want.

Over time though, with the mainstream of rappers so caught up in trying to achieve a success they cannot (because NYC rap effectively died in the early to mid 00's after the mixtape rap bubble burst), we have the two forms of underground maliase: False NYC-Retro-Active Pristine HEAP-HAAAP (See: Statik Selektah & Alchemist supported artists) or the new post-A$AP/Mishka mentality of drawing millions of imagery/fashion/musical influences (via the internet) and making it into this unidentifiable mush rap. Rocky managed to work this very well, but now it's become really tedious to watch these mediocre rich kids all play at being rappers with no understanding of how to rap well. Underachievaz are the only people walking both of these undergrounds like a tight-rope as well as Joey Bada$$ (who I just can't take seriously, because it's just a kid hopelessly copying the 90s, while rapping over 90s beats. There's nothing I haven't heard.)

A big part of it though is yeah, New York has become this multimedia industry capital where people from all over the world move to redefine themselves and become a new person... So the natives have to get shoved off into the ether. Nobody talks about it, but the murder rate is actually raising in the 'darker' inner city places like Red Hook, because native born New Yorkers are becoming caged in as more and more, transplants force us to disperse out of the city. Also with the economic crash, non-media/arts personnel have become a dime a dozen, so even as far out as Long Island (where I was living until 2010), there's a complete flux of young people getting the fuck out of dodge, older folks just dying off, and nobody coming in to say "This is a nice place to live".

It's not even that New York Rap "Had It's Run", because admittedly, we maintained this facade of being the superior rap culture for well over a decade... It's the fact that New York doesn't have a culture anymore, because it's constantly getting told that anything native and home-grown isn't good enough. 9/10 times, it is, and that's sad, but there's also no room for ingenuity due to... I want to say, the cultural and sociological pressures of what "New York Hip-Hop is SUPPOSED to be".

^^ reeeespect for that post.

 

[outraygeous]

The whole description of New York is kind of like how I feel about London.

The rise of the middle classes is an unstoppable force. Not sure the word hipster is correct this days. It means something else and no one has really coined a term for all these kids who are internet savy and can get a huge buzz from what looks like all their school mates.

I dont know, sometimes the internet gives you too much information. Like, I like Joey Bada$$, just cos of the music. My mate who loves '97 rap, now likes Joey and is asking for more of his stuff.

Ill enjoy it for what it is as it will be forgotten in a couple years anyway.

 

[CrowleyHead]

@outraygeous; He's fine, but at the same time... I have a perverse love of newness. And that's not happening in NYC.

I think a big part of this though is that in 'urban' NYC (as in, not Staten Island, which is rather suburban, Manhattan, which is mostly businessy, and not THAT PART of Brooklyn) has become this very conservative place. If you go out of your way to 'stand out' you get robbed, etc. And it's reflective in the musical culture because about 5 years ago, we had dance trends and little myspace one off-singles, just like how in California, they had Jerk.

But here's the big difference: here, they don't tolerate that. You instantly have to make songs with your elder statesmen (awkward Ron Browz collabs w/ Nore & Ghostface, DJ Webstar's dive into irrelevance w/ Jim Jones). Little kids never get featured dancing in videos a la Snoop's "I Wanna Rock", you just get a 30 year old drunk in a club doing those moves a la Cam & Vado's "Speaking In Tongues". The mid-range hip-hop people consider it 'corny', the mainstream people are too busy pushing songs they've been paid 10,000 to force people to like, and the so-called 'underground DJs' don't want to band around a general aesthetic of youngness, creativity and fun, because they had a whole decade of 'adult oriented rap' erode that out of them. L.A., they have DJs who'll play 21 year old 'reality rappers' right alongside 14 year old novelty raps, as long as the people enjoy those songs.

It's one of the reasons I'm glad not to live in that area. NYC has a really self-loathing energy where it hates the children it has, but accepts the children of everywhere else in the nation, hoping to lie and become the adult they dream to be.

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

sounds like ny is still crushed by the weight of its history (i still dont understand how people like action bronson). i dont think london is crushed by its history w/r/t dance music, its just that those who cant think of any big new ideas are the ones with the most work/buzz.

as far as the gentrification thing - you could basically replace ny with london and most of it would probably still ring true.

The rise of the middle classes is an unstoppable force. Not sure the word hipster is correct this days. It means something else and no one has really coined a term for all these kids who are internet savy and can get a huge buzz from what looks like all their school mates.

someone needs to do a study (or dissensus thread at least) about this. cos its relevant in every genre. cuts across the arts in general.

 

[outraygeous]

another thing which is about who you know.

Not hating on Piff Gang but they are getting really big. Now there are loads of kids in estates doing the same thing and uploading their videos to youtube and not getting noticed at all.

Apparently they are from Harlesden but have never made a tune with USG / K Koke? Maybe I am wrong? Seems a bit biased / weird

Fuck it, im too old to match these kids grind. They know the nets power and use it.

The internet is a gift and curse.

 

[slackk]

Piff Gang have good management, it's as simple as that.

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

mos def and mannie fresh are doing an album to confuse all the old indie rap fans who hate it since they discovered what they missed.