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droid

Guest
Yeah. Spain looked a bit shaky yesterday. Italy weren't that great either. Both got very nervy.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
Do Spain really murder anyone (Ireland apart)? You're prob right that they'll win, but I think English physicality up front will trouble a Spanish defence which looks creaky and has really ridden its luck (the blatant penalty yday, the free header for Croatia, the mix-up that led to Balotelli having a one-on-one). It's possible.

Fair point, though I still think England's style – principally our carelessness with possession – is a gift for Spain.

(fwiw if we're weighing up blatant pens etc, Spain were denied one for a pretty vicious arm in the face on Busquets last night)
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
Can't say I'm surprised. Maybe when we need a win Walcott will be a starter, though really we could do with avoiding Spain next round.

Roy Hodgson has resisted the clamour to include Theo Walcott in his starting line-up for England’s final Euro 2012 group match against Ukraine this evening.
Walcott made a dramatic impact as a substitute in the 3-2 victory over Sweden on Friday, scoring England’s equaliser and setting up the winning goal for Danny Welbeck, but Hodgson has preferred the industry and tactical discipline of James Milner on the right-hand side as his team look for the result that will secure their place in the quarter-finals.
It is understood the only change to the starting line-up is Wayne Rooney, back from suspension, replacing Andy Carroll in attack. Welbeck will play alongside Rooney, his Manchester United team-mate, but both Carroll and Walcott have been assured that they could have big roles to play over the course of the evening.
Barring a late twist, England will line up in Donestk with a starting XI of: Joe Hart – Glen Johnson, John Terry, Joleon Lescott, Ashley Cole – James Milner, Steven Gerrard, Scott Parker, Ashley Young – Wayne Rooney, Danny Welbeck.
 

franz

Well-known member
yeah thank goodness for Balotelli. It was frustrating to watch Italy play into Ireland's hands for a long while there, but i suppose it's hard not to play nervy in those situations. Up until the moment that Mario came on, you'd be hard pressed to finger the player in that squad who looked like he was going to take it upon himself to find a goal. No way they should be trying to engage in an air game against a hulking team like that.
Aside from the moments where they are perplexing in their unwillingness to take it to their opponents, this team does look quite good. Seems like most everyone has seen action at this point, and no one looks like a dud. I don't understand Prandelli's favouring of Cassano, but i can't say that he's played terribly either. A match with France or England would be interesting. Group A leaves a foul taste in one's mouth, but otherwise, this is shaping up decent.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Italy vs England, will be immense. Winners play Germany, this is shaping up to be a great tournament. I'd say.....Portugal.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Well, England top the group. Not sure that others will fear them as Rooney stated but they're in the competition and anything can happen. I'm also not convinced that Italy will be any easier than Spain to be honest. It's been a long time since they've played each other in a competitive game so should be interesting for that reason if nothing else; I remember England Italy in the world cup qualifiers in the nineties but I don't think they've met in the finals of a tournament in my football-watching life time.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I actually wanted the Czechs to win that... but, you were right Baboon, Portugal absolutely played them off the park. I thnk that was the most one-sided game of the tournament so far, even when they went behind there wasn't even one hint of a suggestion that Czech Republic could put any pressure on them to force a goal. And I don't particularly like Ronaldo but anyone who watches football has to admit he's an unbelievable player who is coming good for them at the right time. Is he better than Messi? Quite possibly, in this season where everyone has been raving about Messi Ronaldo's team have won the league and he's scored more goals - despite not having players around him as good as Iniesta and co.
Ronaldo is a fantastic physical specimen who is incredibly strong and who can score hearders (Messi could not have scored that goal today) - however there is something that anyone can warm to in the way that Messi is three foot two and could be pushed out of the way by me in the queue for the bus - and yet he does what he does. Good debate anyway. I bet Messi is a much nicer guy. Bu so what?
 

franz

Well-known member
neither of them is the best international tournament footballer in the world right now, nor have they ever been, thusfar, as far as my memory serves me. Ronaldo is beginning to make a case for himself in this tournament, but do we think he has been the out and out best footballer so far? maybe a question worth thinking about once the quarter finals round has cleared.

i think the distinction is worth making, because club play and national squad play are very different beasts.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
neither of them is the best international tournament footballer in the world right now, nor have they ever been, thusfar, as far as my memory serves me. Ronaldo is beginning to make a case for himself in this tournament, but do we think he has been the out and out best footballer so far? maybe a question worth thinking about once the quarter finals round has cleared.

I loathe the cunt but he's been awesome in the last 2 games.

Enjoyed those moments last night when he was surrounded by 5 Czechs at a time. He could've killed them with one clever pass to a teammate, but of course he didn't, something the Czechs were no doubt counting on.

But against them they looked more than a one-man team. Obviously Moutinho, but Nani was chipping in and Meireles's passing is pretty tidy and preceptive near the penalty area.

Portugal v Spain (if it happens) has potential to be the game of the tournament, though my money's on the Portuguese reverting to their earlier tactics, sitting deep and playing counter while Spain try to tiki-taka them to death.
 

paolo

Mechanical phantoms
Portugal as outside bets to win the whole darn tournament maybe? Germany weren't that much better than them in the group stage (though they did deserve to win)

I remember England Italy in the world cup qualifiers in the nineties but I don't think they've met in the finals of a tournament in my football-watching life time.

Don't forget the Tournoi de France :)
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I'm not saying that Messi can't head the ball, I'm just saying he's not half as good at heading it as Ronaldo - and I think that's reasonably uncontroversial.

"neither of them is the best international tournament footballer in the world right now, nor have they ever been, thusfar, as far as my memory serves me."
Maybe not but you could make a case for either of them being the best club players in the world and that's a significantly higher standard than international these days. Also, there are far more competitive (and other) games so it gives you a better chance to judge how good someone really is. So I think that it's reasonable to call them amongst the best players in the world.
I'm not sure that Ronaldo has been the best player in the tournament, he was terrible against Denmark and if the late sub hadn't got him out of jail his two misses would be what we're talking about now. He came good against Netherlands and even better last night but in the first two games he was being outshone by Nani amongst others. Depends what happens from here on in I guess.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
you could make a case for either of them being the best club players in the world

Not just now, but one or other of them for the last 5 years, which is incredible, especially for strikers/attacking midfielders, where burnout is generally that much quicker.
 

Bangpuss

Well-known member
People don't tend to include goalkeepers in the lists of best players in the world, or haven't since Peter Schmiechel pretty much won the European Championship for Denmark. But I would go as far as to say Petr Cech is one of the best players in the world. He's been incredible for Chelsea since joining them. When you consider that a goalkeeping error is nearly always more costly and more conspicuous, he has made staggeringly few, and commands the area in a way that made it possible for Chelsea to beat Bayern, even though most of the game was played in Chelsea's box. So yeah, I'd put him alongside Ronaldo and Messi.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
People don't tend to include goalkeepers in the lists of best players in the world, or haven't since Peter Schmiechel pretty much won the European Championship for Denmark. But I would go as far as to say Petr Cech is one of the best players in the world. He's been incredible for Chelsea since joining them. When you consider that a goalkeeping error is nearly always more costly and more conspicuous, he has made staggeringly few, and commands the area in a way that made it possible for Chelsea to beat Bayern, even though most of the game was played in Chelsea's box. So yeah, I'd put him alongside Ronaldo and Messi.

Cech? Not since his headmash. He's not even the best keeper in the Premiership.

edit: His performance against Russia was among the worst of any player in the whole tournament.
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
OK, the Portugal vs Czech Republic game is no longer the most one-sided of the tournament. Amazing that Greece only lost by two when they could have been four nil down when the first went in. That disallowed one wasn't off side either was it?
I so wanted Greece to win too... big cheers in the pub when their only shot went in.
 

e/y

Well-known member
I couldn't stop laughing when Samaras scored. I think it's not too unfair to say that he's quite possibly the worst player in the tournament.
 
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