crackerjack

Well-known member
England basically told us what we already knew.

Of all the regular starters, did any enhance or damage their reps? Young and Rooney went down; Welbeck and perhaps Johnson, ever so slightly, went up. Hart up, maybe (though a penalty save would've helped).

Gerrard was by far the most creative attacking force, but is still a liability when it comes to controlling the centre. Terry's a doughty fighter, but so, so slow. So both par for the course. Anyone else?

Even the manner of their departure seemed like a cruel sign that, long term, nothing is really changing.
 

Phaedo

Well-known member
i think long term england will get better. the academies have improved a lot recently (more based on technical skill, keeping the ball, all the skills you'd expect good players to have in 2012 ffs). remember the the under 17's beat spain in the european championship a couple of years ago, trevor brooking said it was the best group he'd seen at that age in about 7 years or something.

god knows why its taken us so long to move with the times but i think we are making progress now. give it a few years and we might actually play some decent football
 

franz

Well-known member
that was an icky way to have the tournament finish.
those first two goals were world class, but watching the game shut off with Motta off on a stretcher... when i thought it was shaping up to be exciting all the way till the end... haven't been so disappointed by a final since 2004.
hats to Spain all the same.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
It died as a contest when Motta went but there was still plenty to enjoy in the spectacle. And I think Spain provided proof enough before then that they're pretty much untouchable. Don't fully understand how they were able to shut down Pirlo so completely where Germany and (less surprisingly) England failed. But then again, maybe the question should be: why couldn't those two sides do the same?

edit: And I must say I loved it. Would've preferred 11v11 but that was the best final since 2000 at least.
 

e/y

Well-known member
Don't fully understand how they were able to shut down Pirlo so completely where Germany and (less surprisingly) England failed. But then again, maybe the question should be: why couldn't those two sides do the same?

I think Xavi pressured him constantly, denied him space, something that Ozil didn't really do (at least not very well). Cesc, too, would drop a little to do the same, I think.

I really enjoyed that game. Stating the obvious, but Spain really are extraordinary.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
It's harsh to go down to ten like that (especially as the first substitution was forced as well) but I guess that's the rules. It was a pretty risky change in the circumstances wasn't it?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
So... Spain have won Euro-World-Euro. I think that makes the most successful run by a European side ever. Do any South American sides have a comparable run involving the World Cup and the Copa America? I guess there is a debate to be had about whether the Copa America is of sufficiently high standard to compare to the Euros given that thirteen of the top sixteen FIFA ranked sides are in Europe but the teams that win it can only beat the other teams in it. Anyway, the next World Cup is in South America isn't it? If Spain can win that then will that settle the debate for the best international side ever? Big if I guess cos no European side has won it in South America as far as I know.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
So... Spain have won Euro-World-Euro. I think that makes the most successful run by a European side ever. Do any South American sides have a comparable run involving the World Cup and the Copa America? I guess there is a debate to be had about whether the Copa America is of sufficiently high standard to compare to the Euros given that thirteen of the top sixteen FIFA ranked sides are in Europe but the teams that win it can only beat the other teams in it. Anyway, the next World Cup is in South America isn't it? If Spain can win that then will that settle the debate for the best international side ever? Big if I guess cos no European side has won it in South America as far as I know.

Copa America- World Cup - nope, Brazil have won it only sporadically, and no Copa America staged between 1967-75. Interestingly, the Argentina of the early 1990s came closest, winning CA in 1991 and 1993 and losing the WC 1990 in the final five minutes. Not sure anyone would've described the 1990 vintage as classic even if they had beaten Germany, though.

Not sure if the European team failing to win in South America carries as much weight as it did since Spain's victory in South Africa, and since the style of football they play would almost benefit from intense humidity etc (other side get knackered even more quickly). But then again, WCs in the southern hemisphere are played in winter, so dunno if that was ever the issue.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
There was some reference to this being unique "in the modern era' and I saw Uruguay mentioned. So presumably they won a couple of SA tournaments either side of their first WC win.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
not directly, but they certainly won quite a lot of CAs in the early days.

Brazil won trophies in 1997, 1999, 2002, and 2004, and, considering the weird circumstances surrounding Ronaldo in the 1998 WC final, they would have to be close in considering best tournament team ever. So yeah, they were possibly closer to 3-trophies-in-a-row than early 1990s Argentina, contrary to what I said.
 
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crackerjack

Well-known member
If Spain can win that then will that settle the debate for the best international side ever? Big if I guess cos no European side has won it in South America as far as I know.

They're already the first European team to win outside Europe. Would be phenomenal to do it in Brazil, too.

But football's gonna have to play catchup cos out of the current squad only Xavi and maybe Alonso is too old for next time and they've already got Cesc to come in as a regular.

Someone tweeted yday that they're currently champions at three junior levels to. Maybe the world just needs to find another game.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member

e/y

Well-known member
Ah, completely forgot about Welbeck's goal...thinking about it, probably up there with Ibra's, really great goal.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
I'd agree with Blaszczykowski - it was a screamer, as was Carroll's header. Mario's second goal in the semi, too.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
E/Y surely you mean Zlatan's goal vs France?
A quick google said that Uruguay had won the Copa America more than any team (fifteen tiimes), didn't bother to verify it though. My understanding is that when Uruguay won the world cup the English team didn't even bother to enter despite having by far the best team in the world at the time - it being on the other side of the world. Is it pathetic that I kinda wish they had entered and won it so our statistics looked slightly better now? I guess it is.
 

e/y

Well-known member
heh...yeah, sorry, Zlatan v. Sweden. don't know how I got that mixed up, wasn't that long ago :)


edit: FRANCE, Zlatan vs. France ffs. thanks Rich, I must have been lobotomised overnight.
 
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