Jeremy Corbyn

droid

Well-known member
I dont agree with Finkelstein on some things, but he is scrupulously honest, an expert on the misuse of anti-semitism and beyond reproach as a scholar. The holocaust industry is, I think a very important book.

I also seriously doubt Craner has ever read him.

*EDIT - i knew his parents survived the camps, but I didnt know they were sent to Maijdanek. Pretty much a miracle they made it out alive.
 
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craner

Beast of Burden
I have read 'The Holocaust Industry', but nothing else. I mean, I didn't dismiss his argument out of hand, but there was an element of "up to a point, Lord Copper."
 

craner

Beast of Burden
I have a classical Roman Nose, as it happens. I feel I speak for all the descendants of Julius Ceasar, not the Jews. Please get your facts straight, Luke.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
High bridge, architectural structure, noble prominence, large but well-proportioned. If it ever gets broken, it'll be a disaster.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Droid probably disagrees with his disavowel of BDS, his most sensible pronouncement in recent times.
 

droid

Well-known member
Yep, thats it, and like Chomsky it probably comes from a dogmatic adherence to the two state solution, the possibility of which, I'm sorry to say, seems to have long ago vanished over the horizon.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
No, I agree with that, it's a disaster. I always had you down as a one state solution kind of guy, though.
 

droid

Well-known member
Two state always seemed reasonable to me. International consensus, acceptance of Palestinians and Arab world etc. but the Israelis have been a victim of their own success having so effectively demolished Palestinian society & territorial integrity that a Palestinian state now seems impossible. Taba, I think was the last chance.

On the other hand, one state seems just as unlikely seeing as its a dagger aimed right at the heart of Israeli identity and nationalist ideals.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...party-fallout-ken-livingstone-suspension-live

Anyone with any sense (as Kriss points out) doesn't throw around glib comparisons between the nazis & israel, especially in the middle of an anti-semitism row but, it must be said, Livingstone is objectively, factually correct regarding zionist collaboration with Hitler.

To return to Ken's supposed 'factual correctness': http://theconversation.com/labour-a...ionist-about-hitlers-plans-for-the-jews-58656

Labour antisemitism row: there was nothing Zionist about Hitler’s plans for the Jews

Assertions that Hitler supported Zionism before the Holocaust are nothing new – and nothing to do with historical fact.

Also, talking about Nazi policy "before Hitler went mad" kind of implies he was acting rationally when he merely wanted to expel Germany's entire Jewish population rather than murder them.
 

droid

Well-known member
There was collaboration between Zionists and the Nazi's prior to WWII and then again (far more damningly in my eyes, and completely unmentioned in that parody of an article you posted), between 1940 and 1942 when Zionist paramilitaries Lehi/the Stern gang twice attempted to form an alliance with Italian and German fascism, offering to help with the transfer of European Jews to Palestine in return for help to oust the British and set up a totalitarian Jewish homeland. A prominent member of Lehi, Yitzhak Shamir, served twice as president of Israel in the 80's.

The links to fascism don't stop there either - there is the famous 'natural alliance' of zionism and the neo-fascist Lebanese Phalange, links to far-right Latin American terror groups and governments, and Israel's opposition to various UN resolutions condeming neonazism & fascism.

None of this is the least bit controversial and has all been exhaustively documented. There are several respectable books on the subject.

So, whilst its obviously inaccurate to call Hitler a zionist, it is also wrong to say he did not share the goals of zionism - that is the removal of Jews from Europe.
 

droid

Well-known member
Difficult to say with precision I think. Lehi operated mostly independently, but was a splinter group of the Irgun, themselves a splinter group from the Haganah, so there is a spectrum there - the main area of conflict would have been Ben Gurion's detente with the British during the war with, Haganah & Palmach military support, but Irgun also would have fallen into a similar category. When you get to '45 you see Lehi happily taken back into the fold, forming part of the Jewish Resistance Movement and united military opposition to the British.

So, whilst it's not fair to say that Lehi occupied the mainstream of Zionist politics during the war, they did, along with Irgun, embody an ideology that held significant attraction to, and popularity with Zionists. My main impression of Ben-Gurion and the Jewish agency from the Arab revolt on is one of cynical pragmatism - I imagine had Lehi been able to offer a realistic & practical deal for the creation of Israel via the nazis - then the marriage of convenience with the British might well have ended in violent divorce.
 

droid

Well-known member
Short answer - not a million miles from the IRB/Casement and attempts to gain German support for the Easter Rising, though Id say Lehi had significantly more popular support.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
that parody of an article you posted

Lol, please don't ever change.

...1940 and 1942 when Zionist paramilitaries Lehi/the Stern gang twice attempted to form an alliance with Italian and German fascism, offering to help with the transfer of European Jews to Palestine in return for help to oust the British and set up a totalitarian Jewish homeland.

All of which still doesn't add up to 'Hitler supported Zionism', does it?
 
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vimothy

yurp
There's a difference between ethnically cleansing Europe of Jews and Zionism in the same way that there's a difference between forced deportation and deciding to emigrate.
 

droid

Well-known member
Yes, there clearly is a difference, which is why I was very careful to qualify my language in my first post in the subject, have done the same every time Ive mentioned the topic and limited my observations specifically to Livingstone's claim that there was Zionist collaboration with the Nazis, which is true and is, in itself being treated as anti-semitic in many quarters.

Tea, seemingly has, not for the first time, developed selective blindness. Must be easier to build straw men with one eye closed.
 
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