denoir

Well-known member
I think zouk has been around for a couple decades already...

I would add the slow-fast juke-jungle style, if drumstep is on the list...Om Unit etc. Also the "autonomic" dnb became quite a big thing for a while
 
Last edited:

Pandiculate

Well-known member
The "paradigm shift" of the 2010s was the full move to fully digital now in all aspects of (pop)music one the one hand.

Sub-shifts: move away from mp3s to streaming (and from mp3 players to listening to music on your smart fone)

The "vinyl-renaissance" finally kiling off the small (mostly dance) indie labels who actually were putting out vinyl over the last 2 decades due to the hipsters'-need of showing off their gatefold 180g vinly BS represses of Oasis or whatever over instagram. Thus, the pressing plants don't give a shit about aforementioned small labesl much any more and postpone and/or fuck up small vinly runs and put those labels out of business.

Do you reckon we could be 3D-printing Vinyl in a few years?
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
Is the the sliding/glide pitch shift on vocals something only widely used 2009 onwards or were people doing it before?

53 secs:

 

firefinga

Well-known member
Do you reckon we could be 3D-printing Vinyl in a few years?

I don't know much about 3D printing other than the fact it's been hyped currently (although in industry it is around for a few good years already for mock ups/prototypes) - so from the technical side of things I don't know if 3D printing of vinyl is even possible.
 

droid

Well-known member
Fundamental question here that bandshell has touched on.

Every paradigm shift, every 'new' genre is a combination or a synthesis of something that has gone before. Like a fractal, the closer you look the more detail appears, so (to take an example) punk seemed like something radically new, but even a cursory examination can trace the immediate sources (60's garage rock, early 70's Detroit and CBGB's etc) and the antecedents (50's rock n' roll). In this sense the 'spike' of something new looks like a slope when you look closely, and Im sure that there were people saying the that punk was just a repackaging of old ideas at the time.

So - if there is never anything truly new then why did we ever think there was? Its not just that musicmakers have access to everything ever made al the time, but also that listeners now have the same access, or rather, the ability to forget has been lost. 'Newness' is as much a social & psychological construct as much as something objective, so, pre internet, when something vanished for 5 years, it was totally gone, and when it reappeared in a slightly different guise it seemed like it really was something new.

The alternative is - as you get older, and see and hear more and nothing seems new. You could probably make a good argument that the free availability of everything ever made is prematurely ageing the ears of a a generation.
 

droid

Well-known member
I don't know much about 3D printing other than the fact it's been hyped currently (although in industry it is around for a few good years already for mock ups/prototypes) - so from the technical side of things I don't know if 3D printing of vinyl is even possible.

It is possible, and its shit.
 

droid

Well-known member
The reduced attention span brought on by the mass of information doesn't help matters either. A mate and I were discussing how some of what's held up as cutting edge in electronic music atm isn't far off what Autechre were doing from 'Confield' onwards. He made the point that our generation of producers haven't really acquired our own tools yet and that the people from that era have a better grasp on even the newer software than most 'current' producers - there hasn't really been a massive leap on from samplers, drum machines and synths, other than programming environments like Max and Pure Data (which still don't seem to be too popular with the vast majority of producers.)

I was thinking about this in relation to that recent Sherbourne article. A lot of bleeding edge stuff sounds a lot like late 90's+ experimental electronica, or rather, those techniques synthesised with various other styles, so while some of the structures, context and rhythms seem new, the tone and mood are very IDM.
 

firefinga

Well-known member
It's a safe bet that this thread was very likely inspired by Reynolds to a big extent and his ever ongoing quest for the "sound of now" or "shock of the now" (I think he called it something like that). and he is lamenting that there isn't much giving him this shock. Well, I might go along with that. However, at least to my (soon to be 36) year old ears (born late 1979) there is plenty of the "sound of the now" around, much has been mentioned in the above posts. It's just that sound of the now is - structurally at least - similar to what the whole entertianment industry is trying to sell. Namely, old stuff structure-wise but done with "better" (meaning fully digital) equipment. Just have a look at the movies/TV channels - their sales pitch for years now is - "brilliant picture, all in high definition!" or in 3D!!! hey, a shit movie stays a shit movie, be it in low resolution and mono or 4K and dolby surround.

I get the simila feeling with the majority of today's popmusic.

And then there is another thing - others have stated that before me but I thin kthere's much truth in it - lots of the best popmusic in the past came from working class kids/other misfits. In the (semi) public of todays mainstream media, the working class has largley disappeared or is portrayed as lazy welfare bums. That social energy of working class kids trying to make it via music has gone (or got eradicated by 30 year of Thatcherist hegemony)
 

droid

Well-known member
And then there is another thing - others have stated that before me but I thin kthere's much truth in it - lots of the best popmusic in the past came from working class kids/other misfits. In the (semi) public of todays mainstream media, the working class has largley disappeared or is portrayed as lazy welfare bums. That social energy of working class kids trying to make it via music has gone (or got eradicated by 30 year of Thatcherist hegemony)

Also because (other than playing live) there is virtually no model for a career in music anymore. Hence the resurgence of hobbyists, auteurs and people who can generally afford to fuck around for a few years attempting to break through.
 

droid

Well-known member
The universe is full of civilisations which have destroyed their art and culture by reckless super-networking and removing all barriers to the free flow of information.

I think there was a future shock about it.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
Fundamental question here that bandshell has touched on.

Every paradigm shift, every 'new' genre is a combination or a synthesis of something that has gone before.

A couple of things:

1. I'm not sure whether every new genre is created from combination and synthesis of what's gone before. Does the musical use of feedback predate 1964? Does Genre A + Genre B = Dub/Footwork/Chopped & Screwed/Free Jazz/Ambient/Noise/etc.? These may be extensions of other music, emphasising characteristics that were already there, etc., but that isn't the same as recombination.

2. Recombination doesn't necessarily discount something as a paradigm shift, just as long as the product creates a new aesthetic or set of idioms that weren't attainable via the music that had proceeded it.
 

droid

Well-known member
A couple of things:

1. I'm not sure whether every new genre is created from combination and synthesis of what's gone before. Does the musical use of feedback predate 1964? Does Genre A + Genre B = Dub/Footwork/Chopped & Screwed/Free Jazz/Ambient/Noise/etc.? These may be extensions of other music, emphasising characteristics that were already there, etc., but that isn't the same as recombination.

I think there is a problem here in the definition of 'new'. When does recombination/synthesis cross that line?

Jungle is possibly the epitome of the shock of the new, and can be said to be radically different from everything that came before, but its quite possible to break it down and show that the sonic elements had all been done before in other contexts. Same goes for almost every genre. It seems that the subjective elements - the importance of social and cultural context plus the experience and knowledge of the listener are crucial factors.

Newness if like porn. Impossible to define but you know it when you see it.

2. Recombination doesn't necessarily discount something as a paradigm shift, just as long as the product creates a new aesthetic or set of idioms that weren't attainable via the music that had proceeded it.

Sure, but that sets the bar far too low. By that definition, EDM was definitely a paradigm shift, but there is almost nothing new about it sonically. In fact it's main aesthetic feature is the complete lack of originality.

BTW, Im just thinking out loud here. If anything this is an argument against retromania, or rather, an argument around it, when, in fact, I pretty much agree with the theory.
 
Last edited:

firefinga

Well-known member
Like it or not, but EDM has been indeed the last "Paradigm Shift" in popmusic bc it is a game changer. Despite sonically being mostly a washed down version of what's been there before, almost any aspects of "electronic dance music" as we - the old farts 30/40 something who still go here - have known have been eradicated.

This "culture" is absolutley and thoroughly commercialised, music is mostly being consumed via streaming, there is almost no "physical trace" in the form of recordings/compilations. DJs are "brands" with logo and all that shit, in fact the music is the least important aspect of all this circus.

The audience doesn't know nor care for the 30+ years of history of electronic dance music , and this EDM monster has almsot comletely developed outside of the "established" dance culture.
 
Last edited:

droid

Well-known member
Right, so 'newness' isn't just a sonic thing, in fact, it may not have anything to do with the music at all? In fact, could this be the paradigm shift? When fashion and spectacle completely eclipse the actual music?

(I appreciate that this is at cross purposes with how a critic might define it btw)
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
1. Jungle is possibly the epitome of the shock of the new, and can be said to be radically different from everything that came before, but its quite possible to break it down and show that the sonic elements had all been done before in other contexts.

2. Sure, but that sets the bar far too low.


1. I think there are some new things about Jungle. It created a whole new set of rhythmic idioms (as defined by particular kick and snare emphasis) that I can't find precedent for. Aren't things like stuttering snare samples, crossfaded breaks, melodies played on pitch shifted snares and Akai vocal stretch original to Jungle? These elements place it as more then just recombination.

2. I'm not saying that all recombination leads to paradigm shifts, but that every now and then, to use a cliche, the whole is greater then the some of its parts. 'I Feel Love' is on the one hand a synthesis (excuse the pun) of disco and electronic music, yet on the other hand it established an entirely new aesthetic and set of possibilities that disco, krautrock or avant guard electronic music wouldn't have done on there own.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
There's been some talk about EDM. I don't know enough about the European dance music that informs it to say whether it's new or not (let alone a paradigm shift), but does the combination of hyper-compression and synths that carpet bomb the frequency range result in the new (and arguably paradigm shifting) 'digital maximalism' of the 2010's?

A 21st century wall of sound.
 

droid

Well-known member
1. I think there are some new things about Jungle. It created a whole new set of rhythmic idioms (as defined by particular kick and snare emphasis) that I can't find precedent for. Aren't things like stuttering snare samples, crossfaded breaks, melodies played on pitch shifted snares and Akai vocal stretch original to Jungle? These elements place it as more then just recombination.

I would certainly agree that jungle was something new, in fact, Id say it was probably the biggest (and last) great innovation in dance music, particularly between 94-96.

BUT, playing devil's advocate, rhythmically, despite outliers, most of the polyrhythm in jungle can still be boiled down to the snare on the 2 & the 4, ala funk and hip hop. Timestretching was a great effect, but not dramatically different from pitch experiments using tape, stretching back decades. Pitch shifted melody played on drums - actually very rarely used, and lets not forget that the Eventide Harmoniser, the great leap forward in terminator, was first used on drums by Visconti back in '76 during the recording of Low, and sold to Bowie with the exact line that "it fucks with the fabric of time' - which could have come straight out of Goldie's mouth whilst he was dancing around on the desk during that legendary e-fuelled session at Reinforced.

Jungle is in fact the ultimate recombinant genre. Breaks from funk & soul (via Hip hop), Sub Bass & vocals from reggae & dancehall, synths & pads from techno, female vocals from house, a bit of attitude from them all, all channeled through rave and bass culture.

Its a synthesis of practically every genre of late 20th century black music... ...but - couldn't you almost say the same about dubstep?

Music, and especially dance music suffers greatly from the idea of the constant revolution, the fetishisation of the new, the bolt from the blue (you can probably blame the Beatles for this), when in fact the story of music (and art) is largely a story of homages, remakes, plagiarism, rivalrous borrowings, nuanced imitations. An accretion of variations which may eventually reach a kind of critical mass where a line is crossed and we can say that this is something radically different to what came before - if the social and cultural conditions are aligned correctly and the attention span of the audience is sufficiently limited.

2. I'm not saying that all recombination leads to paradigm shifts, but that every now and then, to use a cliche, the whole is greater then the some of its parts. 'I Feel Love' is on the one hand a synthesis (excuse the pun) of disco and electronic music, yet on the other hand it established an entirely new aesthetic and set of possibilities that disco, krautrock or avant guard electronic music wouldn't have done on there own.

Yeah, good call.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
rhythmically, despite outliers, most of the polyrhythm in jungle can still be boiled down to the snare on the 2 & the 4, ala funk and hip hop.

Unfortunately in '95 the 2 and 4 emphasis crept there way back into jungle, but the vast majority of '94 jungle doesn't have snare emphasis on both the 2 and 4. There's a lot of emphasis on the 2 and the offbeat of 3, which often goes on to the 1 of the next bar, the off beat of 2 and then the 4. So '94 Jungle is rhythmically more akin to Bossa Nova then funk and hip hop (the trasillo rhythms making their way from the rest of Latin America to Jamaican dancehall, hence why 'urban' London was using them).

I suppose this could then prove your point that Jungle rhythms weren't new, though I would argue that 1) Jungle rearranged the tresillo rhythms so as to be less predictably then Bossa Nova and 2) combining Bossa Nova accents with funk sensibilities (volume dynamics, ghost notes, etc.) created a rhythmic palette that was unique to Jungle.

I'll have a listen to the Bowie, sounds interesting.
 

droid

Well-known member
I know what youre saying re rhythm, and I would also make the argument that the stuff 'around' those beats fundamentally changes how you hear the rhythm - but to take an example.


So in the first bar of the main drum pattern you have a light snare (I think its hotpants) on the 2 & 4, and a strong rhythmic cadence in the second bar. The beat hops around between patterns, but that basic template remains mostly constant, kick/snare, kick/snare in the first bar.

Some info on the harmoniser here: https://valhalladsp.com/2010/05/07/early-pitch-shifting-the-eventide-h910-harmonizer/
 
Top