Nice and ongoing terror attacks in W Europe

vimothy

yurp
In that vein:

Lahouaiej-Bouhlel certainly matches the classic profile of French violent Islamic extremist in many ways – though he is a relatively recent arrival rather than born in the country of immigrant parents, as is more usually the case. He was a young, male petty criminal. He was also not devout, all witnesses so far agree. He did not fast during Ramadan, ate pork, drank, and was never seen at any local mosque.

This lack of piety among militants may seem confusing. It is, however, the rule rather than the exception. It was true of the dozen or so French and Belgian young men involved in bombings and shootings earlier this year, and of Mohammed Merah, who committed the first major attack in France in 2012. Other examples beyond France include that of Omar Mateen, who killed 49 in a Florida nightclub last month.

This apparent paradox has prompted a keen debate among experts. The argument has major policy implications. In France, it has been bitter. Olivier Roy, a well-known French scholar currently at the University of Europe in Florence, suggests those drawn into violent activism are already “in nihilist, generational revolt”. This is why so many are criminals, or marginal. Extremist Islam gives them a cause and frames anger and alienation in the way extremist leftwing ideologies did for some in the 1960s and 1970s. The new militants are thus not victims of “brainwashing” by cynical and fanatical recruiters. This is the Islamisation of radicalism, Roy says, not the radicalisation of Islam.

Many disagree. Some say Roy naively ignores the impact of intolerant and reactionary doctrines on Muslim communities in the west. Others suggest he underestimates the historical impact of western colonialism as well as that of more recent western policies in the Middle East.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/16/nice-truck-attack-terrorism-profile
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
The last paragraph you quoted seems to be critical. There have always been a significant number of western politicians who have believed that they could treat the world, and their own citizens, in whatever way they wished without consequences. Of course these consequences are not visited upon them, but rather upon innocents. It would have been heartening to see Valls booed yesterday (in general and in this specific moment) if one didn't believe that all this is only going to benefit the FN in the end. Swapping one kind of craziness for another, even worse.

Also, terrorism has been pretty regular in France since the Algerian War - it's just far more deadly these days https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_France
 

sufi

осом
Tbf the Gangsta jihad thing is intersting and because I am a leading sociologist I've been tracking it for years. It's linked to prison life. You can see it in the Muslim Boys gang that terrorised sout London with forced conversions a while back. You can see it in Notorious, the Nike Bikies from Sydney mostly if Lebanese descent. It's been present in black America for years intermingling with NOI and 5%. The more scared mainstream society is of Muslim the more attractive it becomes.
This is a brilliant post, the most insightful thing i've seen written about islamic terror/isis on dissensus, & better than almost anything in the mainstream media (and it's luka's obvs)...
ISIS are a prison gang formed in US jails in Iraq, with more in common with Brasil's PCC (Primeiro Comando da Capital – PCC) than anything islamic. Their western embassies & unis are Belmarsh, & other HMPs and their equivalents around the world, tho the US occupation prisons seem to be like the ivy league.
Not to say that there's no violent islamist currents, but the ultras and commandos are most often prison badboys and bullies and that's where the glorification of extreme violence comes from, though the western media snuff fixation is a crucial element too
 
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sufi

осом
Tbf the Gangsta jihad thing is intersting and because I am a leading sociologist I've been tracking it for years. It's linked to prison life. You can see it in the Muslim Boys gang that terrorised sout London with forced conversions a while back. You can see it in Notorious, the Nike Bikies from Sydney mostly if Lebanese descent. It's been present in black America for years intermingling with NOI and 5%. The more scared mainstream society is of Muslim the more attractive it becomes.
Ive also been tracking it, i find the disassociated sociologist position highly useful for this sort of voyeurism
 

sufi

осом
Tbf the Gangsta jihad thing is intersting and because I am a leading sociologist I've been tracking it for years. It's linked to prison life. You can see it in the Muslim Boys gang that terrorised sout London with forced conversions a while back. You can see it in Notorious, the Nike Bikies from Sydney mostly if Lebanese descent. It's been present in black America for years intermingling with NOI and 5%. The more scared mainstream society is of Muslim the more attractive it becomes.
Woolwich is like an epicentre, islam attracts the disaffected in a way that bloods crips and other postcode gangs can't, cos anyone can revert
 

sufi

осом
Tbf the Gangsta jihad thing is intersting and because I am a leading sociologist I've been tracking it for years. It's linked to prison life. You can see it in the Muslim Boys gang that terrorised sout London with forced conversions a while back. You can see it in Notorious, the Nike Bikies from Sydney mostly if Lebanese descent. It's been present in black America for years intermingling with NOI and 5%. The more scared mainstream society is of Muslim the more attractive it becomes.
tell me more Luka, we need to get this sorted out :)
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Staff member
I was given to understand that most of the ISIS commanders were heavies from Ba'athist days, ex members of the Imperial Guard and intelligence services/secret police. Although that doesn't preclude many of them having served time in US prisons too, I guess.
 

sufi

осом
ex members of the Imperial Guard and intelligence services/secret police.
you're thinking of the death star dude :rolleyes:
they got their military skillz and maybe some hardware from the former regime, the viciousness comes from prison
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Staff member
Haha, oh dear. Republican Guard, then. I'm going to leave that error as it is since it's funny as you've quoted me, anyway.

But I'd have thought many of these guys were plenty brutal enough already, given what we know of Saddam's regime?
 

vimothy

yurp
Mr. Roy, do you see a connection between terrorism and failed integration in European immigration societies?

Olivier Roy: I don't think that Islamic radicalisation is the result of a failure to integrate. That's only a pseudo-problem. Many of the young people who take up the banner of jihad are well integrated.... The problem is not a lack of cultural integration.... [T]he European jihadists remain dedicated to a very Western model. It is nihilistic, which is not at all in accordance with Islamic tradition. They have... developed a fascination with the aesthetics of violence... [T]hey are more like the students who ran amok in Columbine High School or the mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik.

(...)

How... do you explain the terrorists′ invocation of Islam?

Roy: I am not denying that there is a religious dimension... I only want to emphasise that these young people do not come from the Muslim community. Most of them have no religious education and have rarely visited a mosque. Nearly all were previously petty criminals. They would drink alcohol and take drugs.

What role is played by Europe's colonial past?

Roy: The left wing’s post-colonial vision is inadequate. In my opinion, Islamist radicalisation can neither be attributed to current foreign policy nor to colonial crimes. These young radicals never talk about the war in Algeria, even if that is where their grandfathers came from. They usually don't even know anything about it.

Why do so many siblings commit to jihad?

Roy: These are young people who want to make a radical break with their parents' generation. Their parents have not inculcated them with Islamic culture. By going radical, they view themselves as better Muslims than their parents. Parents in Europe condemn their children for joining the jihad... European parents say: I don't understand what motivates my daughter or my son. A new conflict between generations is being fought out here...

So, in your view, the terrorists are the result of a particularly vehement generational conflict?

Roy: Most jihadists are "born again"; with radical Islam, they get a new lease of life. That's why there are so few jihadists who are part of the first generation of immigrants. That generation still grew up in the traditional Islamic faith. It was not until the second generation of immigrants that a break with the past occurred, because the passing down of religious beliefs stopped working. Most terrorists belong to the second generation of immigrants.

https://en.qantara.de/content/inter...ivier-roy-radicalisation-is-not-the-result-of
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Staff member
It's all kicking off in Munich now.

Looks like we're just going to have to get used to this.
 

Corpsey

call me big papa
The guy in nice, like the guy in Orlando, sounds like he was a violent non-practising muslim who found a decent excuse to perform a real life GTA massacre. The kid in Munich was just an Iranian-German version of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

Almost as if the new model of terrorism is giving suicidal/homicidal young men from islamic communities a template for carrying out suicide with a 'heroic' twist. I mean, perhaps that was always the case, but I feel like this latest crop of terrorists don't seem religiously, or even ideologically, motivated.

EDIT: As I suspected, this has all been covered upthread already. Interesting from luka re: the 'Gangster Jihad' angle. Reminds me of the film 'A Prophet', although that wasn't what that was 'about', necessarily.
 
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droid

Beast of Burden
Coverage of Munich has been even more bizarre than usual. The first major right wing act of terror since Brevik (and directly inspired by him).

In the last few years, we have been confronted by an increasingly hostile, extreme right-wing nationalist discourse that has taken many countries in Europe and the US by storm.

In this context, many young people from immigrant backgrounds - people who were born and raised in the West and saw themselves as part of their countries - began to realise that in the eyes of others, they were foreigners and would always be foreigners. This racist current had a tremendous effect on the self-image of many young people - and I consider myself one of them - and for many young people of Muslim background in particular it created many mental health problems.

Many Iranians in Western countries actually left their own country due to the rise of the Islamist current there, many second-generation Iranians have extreme hostility toward not only their homeland's government, but also to Islam in general.

Before the 1979 Revolution [in Iran] the idea that Iranians were "Aryans" and descended from a grand race with roots in India and links to Europe was widely taught and believed. Just like nationalist myths in every country, in Iran, this was useful for the government and helped create resentment and a sense of superiority over Turks, Arabs, and Islam.

In recent years, some young Iranian men have been attracted to such views, and on the internet they are widely promoted by white supremacists… the exceptional thing in the Iranian case is that it aligns with European right-wing nationalist beliefs.
 

vimothy

yurp
Is there any reason to describe the Ali Sonboly massacre as a "right-wing act of terror", other than the fact he seems to have been inspired by Brevik (among other mass shootings)?
 

droid

Beast of Burden
From what we know so far, he was explicitly inspired by Brevik, (date of the shooting apart, - German police cited an 'obvious link') and he deliberately targeted 'foreigners'... the pathological factors don't seem to be a million miles away from Brevik either.

Regardless, if he'd been directly inspired by al-Baghdadi, with a picture of Bin Laden as his facebook profile and had deliberately targeted a Synagogue, I doubt his obsession with mass shootings or would be cited as a major factor - but since its not an Islamist attack all kinds of nuances creep in.
 
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