Jacob Rees-Mogg

droid

Beast of Burden
As much as I brand tories devils for not giving a shit about poor people, not a day goes by when I don't walk past multiple homeless people on the way to work with close to zero care in the world - I might think about them for thirty seconds before I completely forget about them. Moments later I'm buying my overpriced imported coffee and browsing Amazon on my smartphone.

From their POV I'm Jacob Rees-Mogg. In fact, perhaps more contemptible, with my half-hearted liberal guilt.
Youre not responsible for the system, you dont profit off their misery. Thats the difference.

 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
I don't understand how he could be viewed as anything but a callous, despicable wretch? And arguably the worst and most destructive PM Britain has ever had (granted, he may be beaten to the post on that one).

Bemused.
I think even next to Blair's unrepentant war-lust and May's seemingly limitless incompetence and pusillanimity, Cameron will go down in history (or perhaps already has) as The Man Who Fucked It All Up. He deserves even more blame than Johnson, whom he can only have known would have used the referendum to further his own career with fuck all consideration of the consequences for the country.

I mean, until two years ago it was at least conceivable that Labour would eventually rally, that Corbyn would either soften his anti-EU stance in response to pressure from the Europhile majority of Labour MPs or simply be replaced as leader, and that even with the Tory papers doing their usual thing, public antipathy to endless grinding austerity, attacks on the NHS, the Windrush awfulness etc. might have led to a Labour victory in 2020 and at least started to pull the country out of the doldrums. But now? We're not in the doldrums any more, we're in a fucking nosedive. Just totally hopeless.
 

hucks

Your Message Here
its regions tho, not people
Yup, and it's GDP, not personal income. My guess would be the richest region in the UK on this definition is the five boroughs of Inner West London plus the City, where far more people work (creating GDP) than live (with personal income). I don't know what the richest region of France is but my bet is it isn't defined as a tiny part of Paris where all the jobs are.

It's not to say the UK isn't economically unequal but it's nothing like as bad as that.
 

Matthew

FKA Woebot
I don't understand how he could be viewed as anything but a callous, despicable wretch? And arguably the worst and most destructive PM Britain has ever had (granted, he may be beaten to the post on that one).

Bemused.
i wouldn't claim cameron didn't cause problems - but unlike osbourne or rees-mogg i don't believe his motives were self-interest. this only matters in the context that most people on the left have something like an intellectual block in understanding the ethical motivations of those on the right; exhibiting such *shock* at the brexit and trump victories.

the left might stop for a moment and consider that - sincerely - people don't like authoritarian leadership - are suspicious of so-called idealists' ability to "selflessly" manage the state.

a great proportion of people on the right don't vote that way *necessarily* out of self-interest. some do - but it isn't just "false consciousness" that causes the working classes to vote for the right. in the uk many "normal" people are innately suspicious of the left - and it's patronising to put that down to dacres and murdochs.

i'd agree that the right ARE MORE IGNORANT of the value of the state and, yes, have played into the hands of global business (that chart droid posts is chilling). but the left should get past the personality politics and this endless pilloring of supposed secret cabals. they'd be much more effective.

to his credit corbyn doesn't get locked into this - and if he wins THIS will be why - because he can touch more deeply the key issue of COMPASSION and ditch the strident/student politics of hatred.

:love:
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Agree with your post Matthew mostly, but Corbyn is an exemplar of what you're talking about, rather than any kind of exception.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
i wouldn't claim cameron didn't cause problems - but unlike osbourne or rees-mogg i don't believe his motives were self-interest. this only matters in the context that most people on the left have something like an intellectual block in understanding the ethical motivations of those on the right; exhibiting such *shock* at the brexit and trump victories.

a great proportion of people on the right don't vote that way *necessarily* out of self-interest. some do - but it isn't just "false consciousness" that causes the working classes to vote for the right. in the uk many "normal" people are innately suspicious of the left - and it's patronising to put that down to dacres and murdochs.
Still bemused. Right-wing politicians and those who vote for the right are ... two totally different things. Don't understand what the various motivations of Tory voters has to do with Cameron being a self-interested twat who has utter contempt for poorer people and vulnerable people. So not all self-interest, some good old fashioned discriminatory hatreds too.

But if we are now talking about Tory voters instead - why is it patronising to say that the Dacres and Murdochs prey on people's hopes for a better future by lying to them and stoking up hatred? I can see why the term 'false consciousness' is not ideal, but everyone is susceptible to being swayed by propaganda, and the likelihood of that happening becomes greater the more someone has to believe in a better future cos their present is a bit shit (economically speaking). The papers you named specifically target people who are in that situation.

And to state the obvious, many millions of working class people don't vote for the Tories, even if their support among working class people is indeed increasing according to the stats as things get more desperate.

While many on the Left might have been shocked in one sense at the Brexit and Trump votes, then I think this would be the shock of disappointment rather than the shock of disbelief (perhaps felt by the centre) - after all, just history all over again, isn't it, the right wing profiting from economic pain and a deficit of hope.

And of course people like authoritarian leadership - they show tacit approval for a system that shrinks the life choices of the majority, because they're told it's the only option.
 
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Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
SHIT! What a wasted opportunity. This afternoon I drove past JRM in his vintage Bentley (naturally), or one of them, on the M5 in or near his manor in NE Somerset. It was definitely him, the plate even ended "MOG". I actually asked my girlfriend if she was prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice with me to take him out, for the common good, like. Sadly we bottled it.

Sorry for my cowardice, everyone.
 
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Matthew

FKA Woebot
why is it patronising to say that the Dacres and Murdochs prey on people's hopes for a better future by lying to them and stoking up hatred?
because the assumption in doing that is that the sheeple are incapable of making up their own minds

ultimately though it's not a position i take much pleasure defending so i should just shut my fat gob
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
information about the world beyond what is received through the senses comes through the media and the media is owned by a vanishingly small number of self-interested individuals. making up our minds about things which, for us, only exist, in any meaningful sense, as images on a television, or as words in a newspaper or on the internet, is...

in the nicest possible way, i think your take on this is pollyannaish in the extreme. it's not an adult view of reality.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
that near infinite reservoir of information is filtered to us through a tiny number of pipelines. this is stuff they teach you at school.
 
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