sadmanbarty

Well-known member
Russ is Jamaican, am’s African. Those cultural differences are nowhere near as divergent as photek, the Pakistani bloke on original nutter and the rags twins.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Obviously there’s the whole African vs Jamaican thing, but really all these guys live in the same three post codes, have similar economic backgrounds, all know each other. They’re far more mono cultural than lee Fagan and ckp.

As I said before, I’m talking relatively. There’s always multi culturalism, but in drill it’s far less stark than buun

I mean you hate dubstep so you'll not buy this but I really loved dubstep when it was literally about 8 producers who all knew each other.

Same with funky really, at least in my experience.

Perhaps we should start a dissensus commune out in the middle of nowhere. Cut off all wifi/internet. Fire up Ableton.
 

luka

Well-known member
Currently the best music is music which isn’t creating or produced by social coillisions.

The reason these coilitions were fruitful in the past is because every group was bringing their own thing to them.

My argument is that we no longer have our own things. We need to go and create our own things again if future cultural coalitions are going to be musically innovative.

But if you take jungle which along with UKG is the prime example. In what sense were people bringing their own thing? You had the Unity sound lot who were carrying in an unbroken sound system tradition, ragga twins and navigator doing the same lyrics over different music. But elsewhere things are a lot less clear.

What are the 'groups' involved? Is the true tribal roots music of the White Man really acid house? In what meangingful sense can this be said? And where does hip-hop fit into this? Is DJ Hype really a black geezer from the Bronx? Who are these groups and what might their 'thing' be? How would this work? I can't see it.
 

luka

Well-known member
Russ is Jamaican, am’s African. Those cultural differences are nowhere near as divergent as photek, the Pakistani bloke on original nutter and the rags twins.

What makes you say that? I don't know that I agree necessarily.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Incidentally, again, isn't mumble rap in part a collision of mixtape-trap rap with soundcloud rap? Soundcloud rap being rooted in the likes of Clams Casino et al? (And it's been pointed out before that 'cloud rap' probably had an influence on UK drill...)
 

luka

Well-known member
Obviously there’s the whole African vs Jamaican thing, but really all these guys live in the same three post codes, have similar economic backgrounds, all know each other. They’re far more mono cultural than lee Fagan and ckp.

As I said before, I’m talking relatively. There’s always multi culturalism, but in drill it’s far less stark than buun

I mean this was true of all these scenes, everyone in grime knew each other, were all from the same handful of postcodes. It's always very closely interconnected in this way, it's just skin colours are more varied.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
But if you take jungle which along with UKG is the prime example. In what sense were people bringing their own thing? You had the Unity sound lot who were carrying in an unbroken sound system tradition, ragga twins and navigator doing the same lyrics over different music. But elsewhere things are a lot less clear.

What are the 'groups' involved? Is the true tribal roots music of the White Man really acid house? In what meangingful sense can this be said? And where does hip-hop fit into this? Is DJ Hype really a black geezer from the Bronx? Who are these groups and what might their 'thing' be? How would this work? I can't see it.

Ravers brought the tempos and some of the soundscapes, the b boys bought the breaks, the dancehall lot bought some rhythmic sensibilities, McIng, cultural traditions like rewinds then you have rare groove people bringing in certain samples.
 

luka

Well-known member
I mean you hate dubstep so you'll not buy this but I really loved dubstep when it was literally about 8 producers who all knew each other.

Same with funky really, at least in my experience.

Perhaps we should start a dissensus commune out in the middle of nowhere. Cut off all wifi/internet. Fire up Ableton.

It's always the case. A scene is always a social circle
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
I mean this was true of all these scenes, everyone in grime knew each other, were all from the same handful of postcodes. It's always very closely interconnected in this way, it's just skin colours are more varied.

Grime was more monocultural than garage. In fact as it’s got more multi-cultural it’s got worse
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
In fact I'd say mumble rap (especially on the uzi vert/yachty end of things) is the product of the internet. How could it be anything else, in this day and age? Geographical insularity barely exists now, at least in the Western world.
 

luka

Well-known member
Ravers brought the tempos and some of the soundscapes, the b boys bought the breaks, the dancehall lot bought some rhythmic sensibilities, McIng, cultural traditions like rewinds then you have rare groove people bringing in certain samples.

But these aren't different people from distinct tribes. Each of these genres doesn't have its own native community who meet in the marketplace.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Also, this might refer back to thirdform's point re: drill, but the insularity of the music, not just as separate from the rest of culture but within itself, is somewhat depressing and seems to have real-world, violent consequences.

Maybe I'm off here, perhaps it's a unifying force within its community, but it also seems totally bound up with postcode wars. Which I guess is symptomatic of a lack of social cohesion.

Not that this contradicts your point re: this isolation having potentially aesthetically interesting effects.
 

luka

Well-known member
Hype came from a hip-hop/reggae background for instance. But this is where the word 'culture' will slip and slide around. Do you want to use it in an ethnic way? Or what? There's too much wriggling. You want to allow yourself too much ambiguity here.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
This happened a bit with futurist thread, where you weren’t happy with my definitions s we just went round round not really talking about the same thing. I defined culture a few posts ago, but that’s too broad for you. Define it for me and then I’ll see how well my argument fits with your definition.
 

luka

Well-known member
Well that’s that then. I thought they were.

You can find examples, the unity sound lot come over into hardcore, navigator and ragga twins doing their same sound system lyrics. That's an example where it seems neat and tidy. West Indian backgrounds, reggae, bring it to jungle, all fits.
 

luka

Well-known member
This happened a bit with futurist thread, where you weren’t happy with my definitions s we just went round round not really talking about the same thing. I defined culture a few posts ago, but that’s too broad for you. Define it for me and then I’ll see how well my argument fits with your definition.

Well you want to have the hint of dodginess implied in the thread title, for the sake of engagement, without actually having to be bound by it, without, actually, having to be racist. So you've deliberately put yourself in a tricky spot. I'm just curious to know how you want to leap through the sliding doors just before they slam shut. Im trying to make you leap.
 

luka

Well-known member
Is rap, for example, in this country, anyone's 'culture.'? And if it is is that just on the basis of skin colour, or is there something else?
 

luka

Well-known member
Can you identify with something and make it your culture even if you have no ties to it beyond that?
 
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