luka

Well-known member
Well the Rilke line is just a kind of dishonest and self-serving sentimentality, that pushes aside the horror of poverty by granting it a special spiritual status. I would say that's the accusation being made here. There's a very similar line in Wordsworth, often thought of as the worst line in poetry. Although I've forgotten it.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
What's the rest of the line, I wonder?

I don't understand the concept as it stands. How could it be a glow from "within"?

Is he discussing a sort of detatched aestheticism? The bohemian cult?
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
I'm not too familiar with Rilke but my brief acquaintance with him would suggest he is anything BUT "coarse and unfeeling". Is that right? Was this a blind spot, or indicative of a general self-absorption?
 

luka

Well-known member
But isn't that the whole point? That that degree of sensitivity the cultivation of a fine sensibility, is what is coarse and unfeeling?
 

luka

Well-known member
That it is a luxury which can only be attained by a removal from the world and the reality of people's lives? That it relies on everybody else's assumption of coarseness and unfeeling, so essentially you are talking about the difference between calloused rough strong hands of the worker and the soft dainty hands of the aristocrat.
 

luka

Well-known member
So what are you doing when you elevate soft dainty hands as a value? Something which the circumstances of people's lives makes impossible to attain? Which can only be obtained by economic privilege, the advantages conferred on the aristocrat by an iniquitous system, the operations of brute power.

I think this is basically the argument being made here.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Hard to approach this at my work desk (my hands roughened by the keyboard).

That it is a luxury which can only be attained by a removal from the world and the reality of people's lives? That it relies on everybody else's assumption of coarseness and unfeeling, so essentially you are talking about the difference between calloused rough strong hands of the worker and the soft dainty hands of the aristocrat.

There's truth in that, although I'd question why one person's "reality" - soft-handed or not - is more "real" than another's.

I think this accusation was levelled at Joyce, that he'd written a book ("Ulysses") about the common man which the common man would never be willing or able to read. And of course John Carey's view of modernism - that it was a conspiracy of sorts by the middle-upper classes to wrest literature from the grubby hands of an increasingly literature lower-middle class.

I was actually reading an essay that I'm sure would drive you up the wall by Philip Larkin last night, in which he attacks modernism for severing the link between the arts and the public. I think he's extremely narrow-minded and short-sighted on the "pros" of modernism (and this is a bit confusing, given that he clearly idolises Eliot) but there's obviously truth in what he's saying, insofar as there's a whole load of modern art that the average person is dumbfounded or bored by, and the more educated/aesthetic person could be said to be merely seduced or fooled into "appreciating".
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
I'd have to go back through this thread to see what you're getting at, though.

I mean, the "masses", with their rough hands are - I'd argue - much more interested in soulfulness than mechanistic music that replicates the dreary routine of their lives.

Not soulfulness in some sort of Romantic shuddering sense but in the sense of uplift, joy, passion. They're thirsting for it.

But maybe that's me being Victorian.
 

luka

Well-known member
Well remember that quote is from a book written in the '40s. I don't think he is saying aristocrats aren't real. It's more about the economic system and what it imposes on people. To create an aristocrat you need peasants or, less anachronistically, to create a capitalist you need grubby proles.
 

luka

Well-known member
So soft hands or the exquisite transports of a finely tuned nervous system are bought at the expense of others. It's not my argument and I might be doing it a disservice. It's just a book I'm reading.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
So it's more about the self-indulence of aestheticism, the concentration on private suffering and the ignoring of public suffering?

I can see where third is coming from with his distaste for soul, in the sense that its gilding the lily/polishing the turd. But can you get around the fact that most people (myself included) don't want to listen to music to be woken up with a slap to the face (assuming distorted techno can provide that experience), but to feel happy?
 

luka

Well-known member
Do you? I would dispute that. Im not third and I don't share thirds taste for industrial chainsaw piledriver death gabba. He's made that argument several times across several threads. He doesn't need to make it again and I certainly don't need to make it for him.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
So soft hands or the exquisite transports of a finely tuned nervous system are bought at the expense of others. It's not my argument and I might be doing it a disservice. It's just a book I'm reading.

True, and this is true of everything luxurious in our lives, our trainers and iphones and playstations.

Re: the billboard chart - are most of these songs miserable?
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Do you? I would dispute that. Im not third and I don't share thirds taste for industrial chainsaw piledriver death gabba. He's made that argument several times across several threads. He doesn't need to make it again and I certainly don't need to make it for him.

What do you think they listen to it for?
 

luka

Well-known member
I'm not even sure suffering is the relevant thing here either. More the effects of the system generally, which may be numbing/narcotic as opposed to in hell howling, horror show
 

luka

Well-known member
People listen to music for all sorts,of reasons. Barty has been emphasising, correctly, that often it is about physiological sensation as opposed to emotion. The rush for instance. The roller coaster rush. Often people listen to music to feel sad, often people use music to stir and amplify their anger. people use music (though far less so nowadays) to help define and demaracate an identity. And so on and so forth ad infinitum.
 
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