Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Staff member
It is actually making me wonder if the reason we don't see more civil unrest (i.e. around Brexit) is because so much aggression is displaced online. Bit of a weak thesis maybe.

Well to the extent that there has been any civil unrest, or at least extremely angry and borderline violent protest, it's been carried out by people who are *pro* Brexit. (And not just borderline, when you consider Joe Cox.) The 'grab what you can and burn down the rest' wing of the ruling class has done such a good job of portraying the 'grey technocratic business-as-usual' wing of the ruling class as the true elite, and of itself as the vanguard of 'the people', that this is where angry prole energy is being expended these days.

And yeah, there's plenty of anger on the other side but it's mostly in people who are a bit too nice and middle-class and who go in for witty banners rather than smashing shit up. Then among people who are genuinely radical you've got a dwindling but still loud minority of twits who still think 'Lexit' is a thing, and a probably much bigger contingent who are now firmly anti-Brexit but who are reluctant to come out in force for fear of being seen as anti-Corbyn, as pro-EU per se (Neoliberalism! Fortress Europe! Soros!) or as being on the same side as Tony Blair and the Lib Dems.
 
Last edited:

Bad Faith Healer

Bamber Clatscoigne
Well to the extent that there has been any civil unrest, or at least extremely angry and borderline violent protest, it's been carried out by people who are *pro* Brexit. (And not just borderline, when you consider Joe Cox.) The 'grab what you can and burn down the rest' wing of the ruling class has done such a good job of portraying the 'grey technocratic business-as-usual' wing of the ruling class as the true elite, and of itself as the vanguard of 'the people', that this is where angry prole energy is being expended these days.

And yeah, there's plenty of anger on the other side but it's mostly in people who are a bit too nice and middle-class and who go in for witty banners rather than smashing shit up. Then among people who are genuinely radical you've got a dwindling but still loud minority of twits who still think 'Lexit' is a thing, and a probably much bigger contingent who are now firmly anti-Brexit but who are reluctant to come out in force for fear of being seen as anti-Corbyn, as pro-EU per se (Neoliberalism! Fortress Europe! Soros!) or being on the same side as Tony Blair and the Lib Dems.

Brexit is merely a proxy and lightning rod. Proxit. Once that's abated, there'll be something else. No-one can get too excited about trading arrangements.
 

Leo

Well-known member
hong kong a bit crazy at the moment, when have you ever seen protesters apologizing for their behavior? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/14/world/asia/hong-kong-airport-protests.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

standing up against Chinese military forces is a bit more real than a bunch of creative types getting dressed up and making clever signs for their organized stroll/social event in a western city, mindful to be back home in time to change and catch that last soulcycle class.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
Speed and ketamine make for fucking shit parties. The weird emotional looseness of MDMA was what made raving weird and amazing. Emotional incontinence.

am still annoyed at patty liking this post he needs to go to a proper darkside party.
 

pattycakes_

Well-known member
Not sure if I said this before but I did ket twice and both only enough to get a bit wobbly. Felt dark and like it wasn't for me. Maybe because it was at a rave at the arse end of the squat scene early 2000s with skinheads and pitbulls everywhere. Have known total space cadets who've tried pretty much everything and say that ket is their favourite though. Should probably give it a fair go one day.

There's also the sense of principle in witnessing its effects on the club scene as I came of age. When I was old enough to go out around 2001 it was mostly pills and weed. Then mdma as the pills went shit and then K came along not long after...in tandem with micro and mnml. Hawtin at the helm. Fancy haircuts, low cut black Vs. Electroclash was also going on then too. The vibe went from positive to weird fast and loads of new types of people were coming into the club. Ket was huge then and I really believe it tore apart the fabled sense of community better than anything else. Sure there were plenty of other factors, but for me, ket did the biggest damage.

Almost immediately people were in isolated clumps in the corner, emitting dark vibes and casting shade out into the ether. Didn't like it one bit. This is my main problem with it and why I've never really been drawn to it in any way.

Funnily enough I was at a party this last weekend and they were playing good vibes house all night. Got into a convo with a guy and I said I was really liking the music but they could go a bit darker and dirtier every now and then just for some contrast. The guy said he knew the organisers and had spoken with them about exactly that. They said that if they did that they'd only end up attracting the black clad Berghain types Who'd be banging ket all night. It really reminded me of my London raving experiences and I realised how fucking spot on it was because the vibes on the floor really were super positive all night.

The Berghain vibe has to be the most boring, conformist, conservative club vibe ever. I blame ket, hawtin and low cut v necks.
 
Last edited:

DannyL

Wild Horses
I agree entirely. When I said that, I was also talking from experience (though why not be annoyed at me for posting it rather than Patty for agreeing with it?) I went to a lot of club nights and free parties in the Midlands in the mid-late 90s and saw ket turn up and wreck everything. Everyone went from dancing and smiling, parties with a vibe, to stumbling around, smashed. Shit party drug in my view, in comparison with MDMA. Psychedelic special brew. Interesting to do, which is probably why people took it up but fucking lame in terms of a party's mood. Smack came in about that time as well, more as an after-party thing, which was obviously proper dark.

BTW the music up there then was mostly deep house - I misssed out on d&b 'cos I was up there, but that was much more the midlands sound. I would guess d&b/jungle didn't get a foothold outside London 'til much later. Don't know how that sits with your thesis, Third.
 
Last edited:

pattycakes_

Well-known member
Somehow K fits the ambiance of our time perfectly eh? Kinda nihilist vibe. Really need to give it a spin to get a proper view on it tho
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
A few friends of mine are very deeply into it atm but as a psychedelic not as a party drug. They seem to be getting into some pretty far off spaces with it.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
ket is trash no i was talking about speed. mdma without the positive vibes and jitters. and patty not everyone wants to go to a dancefloor and believe in some vapid peace and love shtick with people who are just as conformist and media creative outside their party life. it isn't the sounds that are conservative in berghain (although these days they are often that, but the crowds) and this also applies to house nights, if not even more. at least at decent techno nights you're likely to encounter freaks, but at white house nights it's all socialising
 

thirdform

Well-known member
Not sure if I said this before but I did ket twice and both only enough to get a bit wobbly. Felt dark and like it wasn't for me. Maybe because it was at a rave at the arse end of the squat scene early 2000s with skinheads and pitbulls everywhere. Have known total space cadets who've tried pretty much everything and say that ket is their favourite though. Should probably give it a fair go one day.

There's also the sense of principle in witnessing its effects on the club scene as I came of age. When I was old enough to go out around 2001 it was mostly pills and weed. Then mdma as the pills went shit and then K came along not long after...in tandem with micro and mnml. Hawtin at the helm. Fancy haircuts, low cut black Vs. Electroclash was also going on then too. The vibe went from positive to weird fast and loads of new types of people were coming into the club. Ket was huge then and I really believe it tore apart the fabled sense of community better than anything else. Sure there were plenty of other factors, but for me, ket did the biggest damage.

Almost immediately people were in isolated clumps in the corner, emitting dark vibes and casting shade out into the ether. Didn't like it one bit. This is my main problem with it and why I've never really been drawn to it in any way.

Funnily enough I was at a party this last weekend and they were playing good vibes house all night. Got into a convo with a guy and I said I was really liking the music but they could go a bit darker and dirtier every now and then just for some contrast. The guy said he knew the organisers and had spoken with them about exactly that. They said that if they did that they'd only end up attracting the black clad Berghain types Who'd be banging ket all night. It really reminded me of my London raving experiences and I realised how fucking spot on it was because the vibes on the floor really were super positive all night.

The Berghain vibe has to be the most boring, conformist, conservative club vibe ever. I blame ket, hawtin and low cut v necks.

if you were a middle easterner you would not (never) believe in any fabled sense of community. that's just a fact. not that i want to go all standpoint epistemology, but you're really pushing me there. even south asian and to an extent black british were able to attain some constancy from being in the country for long periods of time. club cultures in this country have never, ever flourished for post-1970s imigrants.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
The Berghain vibe has to be the most boring, conformist, conservative club vibe ever. I blame ket, hawtin and low cut v necks.

oh come off it, this is just an embarrassing old man yelling at cloud caricature that we are trying to avoid on this forum. yes, berghain has many issues, and conservatism is definitely one of them, as well as people making a specific type of big room techno for that floor, but they have fuck all to do with hawtin, in fact they've repped some pretty legit industrial techno in the past, regis/paula temple etc etc. and whatever you might say about that clubs celebrity status it's still more sexually freer than london clubland.

about as far you can go from hawtin and can't knock it!

https://soundcloud.com/paulatemple/berghain

Don't get me wrong, i think berlin techno is 95% shite but you're just amalgamating two things that have very little to do with each other.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
like we're not saying you have to go full speed psychosis - although I'd highly recommend it as a humbling experience. We just want to go nuts to some mentalist tunes and kick the shit without overattaching some positive vibes meaning to it. What's wrong with that? most people who say clubbing have changed their life are just as self-centred as non-clubbers so what's wrong with us rejecting the positive vibes ethos? We're not saying positive moments can't happen, but we're more mystical than orthodox religion, and mysticism is fundamentally frightening. i get the feeling some of youse are too scared to realise this and take a west centric new age approach to this.
 

pattycakes_

Well-known member
third you tit, your experiences, ideals and views are your own opinion maan. When we're you last in berghain? It's predominantly a techno club and it's fucking boring/conservative. Same goes for the majority of techno parties I've been to here. And the freaks here are fucking boring too. Just because they're all bdsm and way out doesn't guarantee shit. I mean, it's Germany and I'm forever reminded of that Wolfgang Voight video where he's talking about mathematically analysing the funk and reducing it down to a non euphoric formula or whatever blah blah. They don't seem to value funk here. The more nihilist the better. Look at how they dress and present themselves. It's beyond gothic. Satanic health goth. Music, purely mental stimulation. No desire to stir the body. Wtf is that? A nazi plot is what but let's not. Ahem. Yeah and what has me being a middle easterner got to do with the price of eggs? I don't get why you bring that into it all the time. I don't see things the way you do when it comes to clubbing. I have direct experience with clubs that fit the ideals I fart on about on here constantly and they remain some of the nicest moments in my life. I will continue to look for them. I do speed and sometimes I like it, but the fkn downslope sucks worse than being held in a leg lock by big ol Drusilla with the hairy moles for 3 hours straight. Haha I bet you like that bit tho? ;p Even if it only lasted for a short time, there was a moment when raves were a rich cross section of society all on the same vibe and being healed in a way that can only be done by that magic recipe of loud music and serotonin rushes. That shit is love man. I know u don't believe in it, but I do, damn it!

But, as I'm writing that, I have to say, most of the time I would go clubbing alone. I prefer it. I like to find myself a little bit of space and fling myself around for a bit til I'm covered in sweat and then go and talk some shit with a stranger for a bit, have a smoke and then back to the action. So I don't actually practise what I preach all that much. But I do think it would be better like that than it is right now.

Aaaaaaand I never said everybody wants to do things the way I do. I would never think that. I'm just talking for myself. But I know I'm not the only one.
 

pattycakes_

Well-known member
oh come off it, this is just an embarrassing old man yelling at cloud caricature that we are trying to avoid on this forum.

Far from it man. I'm well up for crazy partying. But the problem here is I'm pretty certain you haven't even been to Berghain recently and yet you're talking like you're a regular. It's overrun by tourists and the line is always fucking long and the same crazy sexy shit can be found in much better clubs like griessmuhele. You are jumping to conclusions yet again. Berghain jumped the shark years ago man. It's a tourist attraction nowadays. And who gives a shit who they booked? That's no guarantee of anything. You know how much they get paid for playing there? Fuck all compared to most places because the place is so arrogant they know that they're the best place to have on your cv so they rip you off while raking in millions every weekend.

about as far you can go from hawtin and can't knock it!

Not 100 % sure but idk if he has even played there. I wasn't saying he has anything to do with Berghain. My point is more that he had a big influence on the aesthetics and attitude of clubbers the world over.

Don't get me wrong, i think berlin techno is 95% shite but you're just amalgamating two things that have very little to do with each other.

No, you got me wrong
 

pattycakes_

Well-known member
I should probably add that I also like getting completely gronked at times and losing my mind with stimulatory overload but I actually value the sense of connection with other people way above that. The former is more an every now and then thing. The latter is your long term wifey who's gonna pull you through this crazy game called life....


In my opinion!
 

thirdform

Well-known member
No I haven't been to berghain. Have no desire to and never will. It's not my type of club and I'm not out to defend it. But you go to a dj sprinkles house night in the UK and tell me it isn't exactly the fucking same crowd demographic as the boring techno you castigate, because it is. you're just putting a romantic gloss on it, just like the people who spend obsessive amounts in techno differentiating their techno from that drumcode shit. that's not how the discourse works on this forum mate. The whole framework is not meant to privilege that high dance culture vs trashy cultture divide. if anything its the more (stereotyped as conformist) stuff by the dance music press that we see potential in. being into theo parrish (and i like theo) is definitely a type of taste barometer that the RA/fact mag/xl8r/mixmag types value. It's seen as being a connoisseur whereas the more lowbrow hard techno, a lot of the time they reluctantly write about it with no commitment to it all, I know this because I've spoken to many of them about the genre at parties and they have no fucking idea.

more in following posts.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
Not 100 % sure but idk if he has even played there. I wasn't saying he has anything to do with Berghain. My point is more that he had a big influence on the aesthetics and attitude of clubbers the world over.

And that's where we disagree, like in politics. you're willing to attribute these negative personalised traits. whereas I see cold, inhuman and abstract economic forces (not entities!) at work. hawtin didn't influence clubbers the world over, the crises in the economy and social cleansing did. what a daft idea to attribute that much power to someone who has been insignificant for nearly 15 years. you'd be better off saying joy orbison influenced te choices of clubbers worldwide, which would at least be vaguely tenable in 2019.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
it's Germany and I'm forever reminded of that Wolfgang Voight video where he's talking about mathematically analysing the funk and reducing it down to a non euphoric formula or whatever blah blah. They don't seem to value funk here.

So? black music (and especially black dance music) hasn't since at least the mid 80s. the jack and funk are not the same are they? one is gay, the other is straight. yes that's an oversimplification but detroit techno owes far more to gay disco than its proponents would like to admit. house and techno and later jungle trailblazed a new type of rhythmic interaction which was not funky in the p-funk sense and even early electro boogie, as great as that stuff is. Like, Wolfgang's quote might seem a bit dumb, but it's not something to pull your hair out over.

The more nihilist the better. Look at how they dress and present themselves. It's beyond gothic. Satanic health goth.

So? the acid smiley t-shirts in this country were the triumph of thatcherism, not its overcoming. Cringe inducing fads have existed in dance music since day 1. and I agree the satanic goth stuff is cringe...

Music, purely mental stimulation. No desire to stir the body. Wtf is that? A nazi plot is what but let's not. Ahem.

this is total nonsense though isn't it. By that logic darkside hardcore jungle from 93 is not dance music, bunker/cologne acid is not dance music (obviously i know you don't subscribe to this pov as you are into the dutch stuff.) the berlin stuff is not a music of mental stimulation, it's just greyscale drone techno to set a pseudo-mood, but so is tech house and prog house. yet prog house along with trance is the biggest dance music in the world. doesn't make it good but facts is facts. Maybe the problem is *the club itself* and not specifically berghain?

Yeah and what has me being a middle easterner got to do with the price of eggs?

Because when it comes down to it, I'm the one who nf thugs are gonna beat up first, not you. You'll only ever get beaten up for going against them, not for merely existing. there was no bringing together of the races for us. we grew up as a population under police surveillance and constantly stereotyped as fundamentalists. the psychic armour necessary for us to navigate the UK is different to you with yer shirt off jumping around on 5 pingers. even when me and my mates did MD, we were far more reserved than some of you lot.

I don't get why you bring that into it all the time. I don't see things the way you do when it comes to clubbing. I have direct experience with clubs that fit the ideals I fart on about on here constantly and they remain some of the nicest moments in my life. I will continue to look for them. I do speed and sometimes I like it, but the fkn downslope sucks worse than being held in a leg lock by big ol Drusilla with the hairy moles for 3 hours straight. Haha I bet you like that bit tho? ;p Even if it only lasted for a short time, there was a moment when raves were a rich cross section of society all on the same vibe and being healed in a way that can only be done by that magic recipe of loud music and serotonin rushes. That shit is love man. I know u don't believe in it, but I do, damn it!

It's not about not believing in it. Look, I've had *a very very few* amazing times on mdma. but it's not real. eventually you have to come to terms with that. that's why darkside hardcore and hard techno happened. you're buying peace for three bucks a hit but you're not remotely breaking from the establishment or even *the established way of things* Gonzo is absolutely right on this. Tim Leary was not on our side, he was a snaik oils salesman and an archetypical liberal capitalist. 'Consciousness-expanding' acid culture was used to invoke the opposite, consciousness suppression, only leaving "failed seekers and permanent cripples". The war on drugs has always been a war against us, not a war to liberate us. By God I'd be an absolute hypocrite if I started censoring myself but it's true. You just have to look at what the Italian mafia did with the autonomist movements and what the CIA did with the panthers to see my point. Even going back the opium wars. like, believe in it if you want, but at least acknowledge its a belief and a voluntary self-deception, not a blueprint for achieving any kind of radical love. I'm not anti-love, I just don't think raves give you that unless you are a part of a certain psychedelic/psychonaut contingent, which I am not.
 
Top