mvuent

Void Dweller
are "proper tunes" the best kind of music? or are they not the ultimate destination?

which side of the fence would you put yourself on?

classical vs romantic

the voice used for songs vs as raw material in production
 

mvuent

Void Dweller
http://catdirtsez.blogspot.com/2012/01/classical-vs-romantic-aesthetic.html
An Artist embodying Classical Aesthetics is one who sees a specific "truth" and seeks to provide order and harmony in his/her Artistic universe. An Artist who embraces Romantic Aesthetics would become enraged at the prospect of being deemed Calculated by a Critic, presumably because it conflicts with the core Romantic principle of Authenticity.

The role of the Market in all this is to encourage Artists who can understand while ALL POPULAR MUSIC EMBODIES Classical Aesthetic principles or order, harmony and technical excellence, while paying lip service to the Romantic principles that the contemporary audience for Art desires from it's Artists: Alienation, Isolation, Dissatisfaction with "the way things are." A specific Artist given commercial success will have to adjust his or her principles with the growth of an Audience: As an unknown, it is best to embody Romantic Aesthetic principles to appeal to the "hard core" fans of a particular genre, much in the same way a Politician will "secure his base" in a Primary campaign, before "moving to the center" for a general election.
 

mvuent

Void Dweller
obviously the vast majority of music fans in general are in the tunes camp but around here I think it's more evenly divided. I really do think everyone is "biased" in one of these directions though.

the usual complains about the proper tunes camp are that it's unintelligent, uncreative, too orthodox, whereas with the other camp (I don't know what to call it) its that its pretentious, unfocused, overly grandiose. both sides can be right to varying extents but the point is that those are the salient negative associations.
 

mvuent

Void Dweller
the classical = existing, well defined structures, aiming for tasteful proportion and balance of daring vs restraint

the romantic = new, unknown structures, extremes / going as far in a direction as you can

in terms of what music qualifies there are clear cut examples (for example, max martin songs and stockhausen's "licht" opera, respectively) but also grey areas. it's more about what values you appeal to.
 
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mvuent

Void Dweller
last thing I'll say is that this isn't really supposed to be an """original""" idea, I'm mostly just curious which ideal resonates with you more
 
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version

Well-known member
This is one of those questions where as soon as you think you've got an answer something pops into your head suggesting the opposite.
 

version

Well-known member
Does time have an influence on whether something is 'classical' or 'romantic' according to this model? Like I love jungle which was obviously 'romantic' at the time, but I came to it years later and well after it had been established so it was an existing well-defined structure by the time I got into it.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
100% proper tunes, for sure

spent my formative years going to/putting on basement shows, living in squats, doing punk stuff etc, don't see it could be otherwise

I can do noise, ambient, abstract, whatever, love the drone now and forever

but at the end of the day, at my core, give me the fuckin riffs bro
 

mvuent

Void Dweller
Does time have an influence on whether something is 'classical' or 'romantic' according to this model? Like I love jungle which was obviously 'romantic' at the time, but I came to it years later and well after it had been established so it was an existing well-defined structure by the time I got into it.
interesting question about time.

I'd say even "when the music was new and had no rules" jungle pretty quickly codified to an extent and had established cultural parameters. so in a sense it was about proper tunes. (but I mean, I'm literally the least qualified person on the forum to talk about that.) but I'd value it more for its romantic qualities like nonstandard structuring of ideas, lack of proper "musicality" etc.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I find the classical/romantic dichotomy to be confusing

like OK Romanticism valued "authenticity" over basically all, sure

and "proper tunes" is authentic, sure

but then it's also extreme, unknown, whatever vs. classical's restraint and tastefulness?
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
like Stockhausen as noted is anti-proper tunes

but he's also extreme, not tasteful, in his own way extremely authentic
 

version

Well-known member
I'd say even "when the music was new and had no rules" jungle pretty quickly codified to an extent and had established cultural parameters. so in a sense it was about proper tunes.

You can't dodge entropy. It all ends up being proper tunes eventually, doesn't it? You even know what you're going to get from 'experimental' music now. It's become a genre in its own right.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
aesthetically, sonically, he's classical

but in attitude he's romantic

i.e. the Beatles included him on the cover of Sgt Pepper as a nod to intellectual, avant authenticity
 

version

Well-known member
I'm gonna come down on the side of proper tunes too as it seems the broader of the two and I think the response carries more weight than the shock of the new thing. The latter can veer into novelty and remain a surface fascination whereas a great melody or hook hits you right in the gut and you like it because you like it.
 
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padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
but I do think about that, the power to shock, or rather to upend someone's view of the possible

my go-to example is: I cannot conceive of any music that would blow my mind the way hearing Jimi Hendrix in 1967 blew some people's minds

it's not about good or bad, or whatever (there are like 2 songs of his I'd ever want to listen to, and yes one of them is 1983 A Merman)

it's that it was a totally new thing - the vocabulary of heavy guitars - that he invented

not out of nothing, sure, precedents, but still no one else had done it, he did it

like no one else did 4'33", John Cage did. no one else painted White On White, Malevich did.
 
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