John Michael Greer on brexit

catalog

Well-known member
He's a druid. He called trump's victory. He says that labour voters (like current democrat voters is US) are no longer working class people, but metropolitan elites who are culturally left wing but economically neoliberal.

He says that in a supply and demand labour market, if you have open immigration, poor people get priced out of the labour market. Probably more nuance and he does say that you can't really say it, ie. It's an unpopular opinion. But he thinks it's true.

I mean probably old hat but I think he's got a point.
 

comelately

Wild Horses
1. Lots of working class people continue to vote for Labour, as seen by the vote in 2017.

2. I don't think the Democrats and the Labour Party are seriously comparable

3. Whilst he may think it is true because it is 'logical', empirical studies have shown weak support for the notion that 'open immigration' from the SM has depressed wages or reduced access to the labour market.


I'm probably using concern trolling loosely because he is probably presenting himself as a neutral figure rather than an ally or (former) member of the Left. But there is a striking resemblance between these talking points and those that might be made by a Dave Rubin, Sargon, or Furedi follower. Do you think if I was to listen to this podcast I would find a pov that differs significantly in nuance from those positions?
 

catalog

Well-known member
Clearly we don’t have “open immigration”.
Yeah sorry, that was a poor way of putting it. I think what he says is that any kind of immigration negatively affects poorer people. I'm not saying (and nor does he) that it's a good or bad thing (immigration). What he's saying is that it has an effect.
 

catalog

Well-known member
1. Lots of working class people continue to vote for Labour, as seen by the vote in 2017.

2. I don't think the Democrats and the Labour Party are seriously comparable

3. Whilst he may think it is true because it is 'logical', empirical studies have shown weak support for the notion that 'open immigration' from the SM has depressed wages or reduced access to the labour market.


I'm probably using concern trolling loosely because he is probably presenting himself as a neutral figure rather than an ally or (former) member of the Left. But there is a striking resemblance between these talking points and those that might be made by a Dave Rubin, Sargon, or Furedi follower. Do you think if I was to listen to this podcast I would find a pov that differs significantly in nuance from those positions?
Don't really know those people sorry. I mean, have a listen, if you don't like it or don't agree, that's fine. I thought it was quite persuasive.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Yeah sorry, that was a poor way of putting it. I think what he says is that any kind of immigration negatively affects poorer people. I'm not saying (and nor does he) that it's a good or bad thing (immigration). What he's saying is that it has an effect.
“Any kind”?

So if a single family comes to live here from Uzbekistan, that will have a negative effect on poorer people.

But that isn’t a good or bad thing.

This is the argument you are bringing to Dissensus, this weekend. From a Druid.

OK.
 

catalog

Well-known member
i feel like you're trying to catch me out, so maybe best if you listen to the interview and then you present your thoughts?
or if you already feel like it's not worth it, then i've obviously failed to present the argument well enough.
just by the by, i don't really get why this is particularly a problem this weekend... do you mean cos of the decision on parliament?
i've been away for a week, listened to it before i went, it burnt a hole in my head.
i thought that's what dissensus was for?
but if not, sorry if i've caused you some kind of offence.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Dissensus is not about posting up 82 minute videos and saying “hey wow guys, what do you think of this?”
 

comelately

Wild Horses
It sounds like you got 'red-pilled' basically.

The basic answer to your original question is no, there's nothing right, useful or particularly interesting about this narrative.

If you want to be a really high level neoreactionary, then you haven't necessarily come to the wrong place - but they ain't training footsoldiers here :D
 

catalog

Well-known member
try listening from about 6:58, for a few minutes, and then if you wanna discuss, i'm happy to, but it seems a bit pointless for me to respond to what your saying.
 

comelately

Wild Horses
try listening from about 6:58, for a few minutes, and then if you wanna discuss, i'm happy to, but it seems a bit pointless for me to respond to what your saying.
I listened for a few minutes and I've basically covered off his argument already - immigrants grow the economy, there isn't a 'fixed mount of jobs' which his argument relies upon. Empirical analysis shows weak support for the hypothesis that the SM has brought down wages.

Now of course 'sovereignty' is a fig leaf, he is right to say that beliefs about immigration were a big driver of the vote and his theory that this is why the polls were wrong.....might well be true.

But anyone expecting Brexit to lead to significantly less immigration is probably going to be disappointed, truth be told:

 

catalog

Well-known member
I listened for a few minutes and I've basically covered off his argument already - immigrants grow the economy, there isn't a 'fixed mount of jobs' which his argument relies upon. Empirical analysis shows weak support for the hypothesis that the SM has brought down wages.
I'd be interested in being pointed to this empirical analysis, that would be helpful. also, what is SM?

I don't think he's arguing in favour or not of immigration though, and this is also not what I'm saying. I am pro-immigration. I don't want brexit to lead to less immigration. that isn't really the point.

the point is acknowledging where it has an effect. cos if you identify that as an issue, surely there's a way forward.
 

comelately

Wild Horses
I'll see if I can find the analysis at some point, but you could probably find it yourself easily enough.

this is also not what I'm saying. I am pro-immigration. I don't want brexit to lead to less immigration. that isn't really the point.

the point is acknowledging where it has an effect. cos if you identify that as an issue, surely there's a way forward.
What effect are you talking about?
 

catalog

Well-known member
so it's the combo of the two things he says:

1. unrestricted immigration
2. unrestricted movement of capital

the two together have a negative effect on poorer people.
 
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