version

Who loves ya, baby?
Obviously both vids are published by RT which instantly throws up red flags, but I imagine they've made similar points on other platforms too.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
A rare Droid sighting.

I was going to add to my post something like "and then they'll post Al Jazzera's "The Lobby" doc" as 'evidence' of the Israeli state conspiracy' as it's something I've seen happen dozens of times every time this argument happens online.

There's a thread here if anyone's interested: https://twitter.com/_LFI/status/1151099311666728961

Firstly, the infamous "£1m" is totally untrue and utterly ridiculous. The conversation was about a visit for young people openly arranged, advertised and paid for by the Israeli Embassy, not an LFI parliamentarians' delegation
The Israeli Embassy was in the process of organising a visit for young activists, businesspeople and artists. They asked a number of organisations, including LFI, for suggestions of individuals they could invite. The "names" discussed in the programme refer to this
 

version

Who loves ya, baby?
That sort of thread ends up just being a case of "he said, she said" though. Someone saying "it's time for some facts" without providing any sources or proof beyond their words doesn't count for much. What makes LFI more trustworthy than Al Jazeera?

The point about hidden power, money and improper influence all being antisemitic tropes makes me uneasy too as although those things obviously are hallmarks of antisemitic conspiracy theories, they're also hallmarks of basically any conspiracy theory and pretty commonplace in politics, so to say that it's antisemitic when those accusations are leveled at the Israeli state seems somewhat disingenuous. It isn't Russophobic to raise concerns about Russian influence. It isn't Sinophobic to raise concerns about Chinese influence. It isn't Islamophobic to raise concerns about Saudi Arabian or Iranian influence.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
That sort of thread ends up just being a case of "he said, she said" though. Someone saying "it's time for some facts" without providing any sources or proof beyond their words doesn't count for much. What makes LFI more trustworthy than Al Jazeera?
I know exactly what you mean, but it points to something I think - people are happier with elaborate conspiracies than prosaic explanations. I've read a lot of the antisemitism arguments on Twitter and have seen The Lobby reposted dozens and dozens of times. People love it. It's confirmation. If you have that as your basic orientation, your way of making sense of the world, that a tiny elite (or a particular state) are rigging or controlling events, antisemitism follows like night follows day.

I agree with your second paragraph only I'd add there's such a history of that particular set of tropes being employed against Jewish people, that I can see why it's upsetting. If you just look at the imagery that's been used historically - puppet masters, octopuses, the big nosed financier. It'd make me go "yikes!" to see this stuff is trotted again, with Israel flags all over it.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
The point about hidden power, money and improper influence all being antisemitic tropes makes me uneasy too as although those things obviously are hallmarks of antisemitic conspiracy theories, they're also hallmarks of basically any conspiracy theory and pretty commonplace in politics, so to say that it's antisemitic when those accusations are leveled at the Israeli state seems somewhat disingenuous. It isn't Russophobic to raise concerns about Russian influence. It isn't Sinophobic to raise concerns about Chinese influence. It isn't Islamophobic to raise concerns about Saudi Arabian or Iranian influence.
That's a fair point as far as it goes, but it gets trickier when you consider the way this is often used to implicate Jews outside Israel. So yes, of course the Chinese state is seeking to extend its influence in the outside world, but you don't routinely hear about people of Chinese ethnicity in Western countries, whose families may have been settled there for multiple generations, being suspected of being agents of the Chinese state.

Perhaps the closest analogue is the way Japanese-Americans, some of them third or fourth generation, were interned in camps during WWII because it was feared their loyalty still remained with Japan.

Edit: and as Dan says, these tropes adhere to Jews themselves and go way back before modern Israel even existed.
 
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droid

Beast of Burden
A rare Droid sighting.

I was going to add to my post something like "and then they'll post Al Jazzera's "The Lobby" doc" as 'evidence' of the Israeli state conspiracy' as it's something I've seen happen dozens of times every time this argument happens online.

There's a thread here if anyone's interested: https://twitter.com/_LFI/status/1151099311666728961

Firstly, the infamous "£1m" is totally untrue and utterly ridiculous. The conversation was about a visit for young people openly arranged, advertised and paid for by the Israeli Embassy, not an LFI parliamentarians' delegation
The Israeli Embassy was in the process of organising a visit for young activists, businesspeople and artists. They asked a number of organisations, including LFI, for suggestions of individuals they could invite. The "names" discussed in the programme refer to this

Israel is a wealthy, powerful regional power with one of the most powerful militaries on earth, extensive trade, arms and political links to many Western countries and virtually no compunction in using whatever means at its disposal to gain strategic and political advantage. There is a long, storied and well documented history of Israeli lobbying and psyops in Europe, the US and globally. Dozens of credible books have been written about this and Israeli politicians and ministers often boast about their accomplishments in memoirs, biographies and public statements. This is aside from Israel's numerous and well organised Hasbara campaigns, which go back decades.

What you and other posters have done here, and indeed what Barty has done in the first post by quoting CAMERA propaganda to attack Corbyn is casually conflate the actions of a ruthless and influential global power with the Jewish people themselves, an act of antisemitism in itself. Apart from the dodgy title, this thread is a car wreck marked primarily by the catastrophic ignorance of many of the contributions.

If Corbyn was a member here there would already have been an article in the Guardian about how he was part of a cultish antisemitic forum.

Au revoir. :x:
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Thanks laying down the law droid. That's probably the end of this cursed thread.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
There is a long, storied and well documented history of Israeli lobbying and psyops in Europe, the US and globally. Dozens of credible books have been written about this and Israeli politicians and ministers often boast about their accomplishments in memoirs, biographies and public statements. This is aside from Israel's numerous and well organised Hasbara campaigns, which go back decades.

You posted two videos from a documentary with no commentary, a video I've seen circulated widely with zero critical thought, and I posted some context questioning one of it's central claims. If you wanna dispute that specifically, knock yourself out.

Not disagreeing with your wider statements - you could always list some of the important books or perhaps quotes that make your case.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Talking about facts is pointless everyone has alternative facts. I wouldn't bother if I were you.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Dan, from that twitter thread:

"That so many in Labour are willing to believe Qatari state TV over the BBC is damning. This is a broadcaster that published a video suggesting Jews had exploited their supposed control of media, financial and academic institutions to exaggerate the extent of the Holocaust."

That's a pretty damning claim - do you have a link for this?
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
And further - no one has yet dissuaded me (or even tried to tbh) of the idea that Left populism can lead to antisemitism and conspiracism. Might be a shit time to have the discussion, when the LOTO's inability to deal with either issue is fucking up his election campaign, but that doesn't mean they aren't worthy of talking about.
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
Dan, from that twitter thread:

"That so many in Labour are willing to believe Qatari state TV over the BBC is damning. This is a broadcaster that published a video suggesting Jews had exploited their supposed control of media, financial and academic institutions to exaggerate the extent of the Holocaust."

That's a pretty damning claim - do you have a link for this?
No, I don't sorry. No expert on either Al Jazeera or LFI.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Talking about facts is pointless everyone has alternative facts. I wouldn't bother if I were you.
I meant to get back to you in the conspiracy thread about this, still thinking about what I want to say.

Just because a range of "facts" is available doesn't mean you shouldn't attempt to chose between them. Not everything becomes equivalent because some false claims are in circulation.

It's an allegiance to some set of facts that drives our commitments and actions, surely. I'm pretty sure what's animating Droid's annoyance is his knowledge of the brutalities enacted by Israel on the Palestinians. Should he give all that up 'cos he could Google some articles explaining it away?
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Yeah - still, I'd happily listen though if Droid does want to try and counter the specific claim I reposted about The Lobby.

But I feel he has ascended once more.
 
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