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Who loves ya, baby?
Oh right, thought you misunderstood, dint read the sarcasm.

Not sour grapes, more relevance. I mean he's done a few good remixes or whatever, but I dunno whether his opinion on what's going on has any bearing on things.

Apart from him being a proper working musician I suppose.

I mean that question has to come up in all this surely: the live show is where it's at for everyone in terms of Getting paid, but maybe there's a gap there in terms of audience and expectations. Like everyone listens to the mixes off the Facebook event, then they go along, and they hear it. Like there's no difference. Actually I've lost whatever point I was trying to make. Just that factor really, which isn't addressed in the article either. Like club spaces matter maybe. Dunno, I don't know what I'm writing here
It does seem a bit like sour grapes tbh.

CHAL IS A GREAT WRITER! BUT NO GD4YA, NO HOLDING HANDS, NO SNEAKER SOCIAL, NO INSTINCT, NO MORE TIME, NO UH...

THESE ARE THE LABELS AT THE FRONT OF EVOLVING UK MUSIC AND EASILY SELLING THE MOST RECORDS, WE NEED TO SUPPORT THEM NOT WAIT FOR THEM TO COME OF SOME USE TO A PLATFORM
That first label he mentions - GD4YA - is one he's involved in.
 

catalog

Well-known member
Yeah yr probably right, dint know that was his label. Is his the only artist reaction? Says it all really
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I don't think its completely handy to disown the exotic impulse
this is a solid point tbf, esp framed in terms of "interest with the outside"

it was more how it was put, but that might've just been unfortunate word choice; I do get the validity of the differentiation he was making

I have zero desire to descend into the morass appropriation/not appropriation etc

that mix didn't feel particularly "exotic" to me anyway, in a good or bad way

just another variation on yr typical post-whatever club music
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
we need auteurs from now on, with soul
I'm tbh extremely wary, if not skeptical, of "soul" as a barometer of authenticity or quality

and tho all the producers I named could probably be named as auteurs, they all come from scenes in some way

but Tzusing and L.I.E.S., Omar-S and various pieces of Detroit history and now, Tapan self-proclaimed as "part of Belgrade's club life since 1994"

tbf idk exactly where auteur-scenius balance lies in each case, and you could probably argue about the word "scene"

but the point is they're not just isolated geniuses, no one is really

I think organically developed scenes are good, and necessary

the problem with all post-everything/whatever "scenes" is the no there there part

"scene" is a way delineating a certain density of creation with some kind of unifying principle(s)
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
obviously all genres - all categorization of art - are semantic constructions with artificial and indefinite boundaries

but things like club, bass, etc, reverse the usual order of things

i.e. in an organic scene, it exists initially as an uncategorized sound/style/etc

at some point it attains a critical mass, and a music journalist or someone names it, beginning the artificial delineation of its boundaries

but those boundaries are imposed around that central density of creation/innovation

I'm a strong believer in the power of the formula, or maybe core sound is a better way of putting it

either way, the central density around which the sound coalesces and is eventually codified

post-scenes have no central density; they are either pale imitations, or seek to be everything and thus are nothing

the latter being tradition with a long history in dance music
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I realize whatever I'm talking about doesn't necessarily have directly to do with the thread premise

more just me rambling on about the epistemology of genres, or whatever

I guess find interesting the similarities and differences in the artificiality of genre construction between an organic scene and post-scene

and more, how synthesizing influences into something new and good is different from counterproductive eclecticism or imitation

if I was engaged in the minutiae of dance music production or criticism I assume I'd care more about whether "club" is like, good or not?
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
like, a concept where on paper you're like "this should be great" but then in practice, it isn't]

actually maybe that should be its own thread
 

catalog

Well-known member
Sorry, ive not read everything youve written, but what exactly do you mean by a post-scene? All of what you are saying sounds pretty sensible
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
by "post-" I guess I mean it exists only in the context of an actual scene/sound that came before

that is has no reason to exist outside of that

like "bass" existed in the wake of baile funk and idk various other global bass-related sounds

or in a non-dance music example, post-metal only exists in relation to metal, whereas the opposite isn't true

the actual scene/genre has a core sound/power, of which the post-scene is a shade (in the ghostly sense of that word)
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
the other thing is: as there is a zone of fruitless intensification, I might propose a "zone of fruitless eclecticism"

there is a point at which doing all thing chips away the core power of any one thing
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
pale imitation and the zone of fruitless eclecticism not being synonymous, but often both found in post-scenes to varying degrees, sometimes overlapping
 

thirdform

Well-known member
obviously all genres - all categorization of art - are semantic constructions with artificial and indefinite boundaries

but things like club, bass, etc, reverse the usual order of things

i.e. in an organic scene, it exists initially as an uncategorized sound/style/etc

at some point it attains a critical mass, and a music journalist or someone names it, beginning the artificial delineation of its boundaries

but those boundaries are imposed around that central density of creation/innovation

I'm a strong believer in the power of the formula, or maybe core sound is a better way of putting it

either way, the central density around which the sound coalesces and is eventually codified

post-scenes have no central density; they are either pale imitations, or seek to be everything and thus are nothing

the latter being tradition with a long history in dance music
I'm not sure if this is completely true. 90s breakcore was initially a post-scene, though it had sharp ideological demarcations. yes I know it's de rigeur to shit on breakcore here (and i don't blame people for doing so) but if you go back to the ambush/cool.pop era there were some truly astounding results, something you wouldn't find in post-club to the same extent. Scud summarised it nicely here:

So there’s an inevitable risk and probability of painting themselves into a corner with this shtick; where the pursuit of quality control to create reliable ‘brand’ can turn to blandification or worse still, a respectably routined neo-academicism. This is exactly the kind of false musical ‘consciousness’ or trap that befalls any well dug-in genre – whenever you detect the faintest whiff of comprehension (whether individual or collective), you can be sure it’s only for a dead mould, normally guarded tenaciously as an unquestionable possession only by forum dilettantes and the feeble minded, but which is lost precisely in that moment it becomes a possession: an indifferent showpiece, neutralised and robbed of its own critical substance. Which is precisely what happened to Breakcore of course…
https://datacide-magazine.com/datacide-18-record-reviews-by-prole-sector/

The problem is post-club is *a scene.* If it wasn't, it would be great. but there are nights dedicated to this approach and there's the problem. everyone under 30 in dance music today knows what post-club is, there are nights dedicated to post-club, ciao down/janus/night slugs/season etc. it is a unified scene in the proper sense of the term, whereas jungle, hell even early grime was not really, not in the same way. part of what was great about early jungle were the ideological (as opposed to cultural) wars. Those wars are nonexistent in post-club because its fully consolidated. It actually has more in common with turn of the century body and soul than people would like to admit. a reclaiming of the club space.
 
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padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
it is a scene in the proper sense of the term
that's the point tho

the power of jungle or whatever is located in what made it coalesce into a scene, before it did

the codification of a genre/sound/scene is if not's death knell, then generally the beginning of the end, at least of innovation

the true innovators will move on, leaving behind more rigid purists, and the imitators

post-scenes never have that pre-codification moment; they spring fully formed, as Athena from the head of Zeus

this is what I mean by there's no there there; they are entirely an artificial creation of basically, hype

whereas for an organic those artificial boundaries are imposed the core of something Ithe core sound) that existed prior to their imposition
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
the codification of a genre/sound/scene is if not's death knell, then generally the beginning of the end, at least of innovation
this is (largely? possibly always? idk) true of culture in general, as well

a classic example is European knighthood, or the samurai

both at their most febrile long before codification, and ossification into symbolism
 

thirdform

Well-known member
that's the point tho

the power of jungle or whatever is located in what made it coalesce into a scene, before it did

the codification of a genre/sound/scene is if not's death knell, then generally the beginning of the end, at least of innovation

the true innovators will move on, leaving behind more rigid purists, and the imitators

post-scenes never have that pre-codification moment; they spring fully formed, as Athena from the head of Zeus

this is what I mean by there's no there there; they are entirely an artificial creation of basically, hype

whereas for an organic those artificial boundaries are imposed the core of something Ithe core sound) that existed prior to their imposition
im a bit confused about your point here. on one hand you're arguing that jungle organically developed before becoming a scene, so it came with all the parasitism of necessarily having to be eclectic, drawing influences from britcore/house-techno/american rap/ragga/soul. We're in full agreement here.

on the other hand ur arguing that post-club comes from nothing. im not sure if that demarcation quite stands. the problem with post-club is its very authoritarianism and *not enough parasitism*
 

thirdform

Well-known member
im arguing that post-club is static. it doesn't have to be but it is. is that because of unnecessary hype? probably but i wouldn't want to generalise that to all scenes. More that these kids are about brandification and chal ravens has just lumped them together to write an article. they share a common scene but it would be like writing about paradox and pendulum in the same article, it's just talking at the speed of light without breathing. Not to like, come across sounding like a Bernie bro or anything.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
post-club comes from nothing
you're misunderstanding

it doesn't come from nothing

rather it exists only in the context of that which it is post-

so does jungle (or anything) in a which but: not self-consciously. initial jungle producers were organically drawing on a diverse range of influences.

whereas post-scenes are self-consciously defined only in relation to that which they are post-. they do in that sense suffer from a lack of eclecticism.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
like id say my approach if and when i have decks to put out a mix could be called *gags* 'post-club' but it would be like that intersection between dub, industrial, techno, jungle and speedcore. It would be like a Lena Willikens or something, from the cologne school (but with more of a nuum grounding.) But that don't fit into the post-club bracket.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
hype isn't the right word but I couldn't think of the right word

more like, a post-scene is a collective artificial creation with no organic point of origin, whereas an actual scene would have organically developed points of origin
 
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