Dune

[IdleRich]

One of the worst for that kind of thing is the film Clue, when the gay character solves the mystery and in the process of exposition reveals himself to be some kind of undercover agent, his final flourish "Now I'm going home... to my wife and kids!" - don't worry viewers, the hero isn't a deviant after all! Even when I was at primary school I remember thinking, is this ok?

I notice now they commonly invert this to show the innate decency of a character. If you have a period drama set in a time when homosexuality was illegal and hated/feared by the mainstream they will often show the hero rising above this and admonishing those who succumb to the prejudices of the time. Nice idea I guess but seems a bit artificial.

I used to go out with a girl who insisted that her sense of right and wrong was entirely free from context, she intuitively understood that a person cannot own another and so even if she had been a wealthy person in Ancient Rome or whatever she would have hated slavery, not owned slaves... in fact she would have probably campaigned to end it. And the same was true of all other prejudices we think we have now dispensed with... whatever era she had been born into she would never have thought newly discovered tribes or other races were inferior, she would have never countenanced homophobia and so on. I wish that I could be so sure of my moral rectitude and strength of character, it must be great to believe so strongly in yourself.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I can see it for free on my tv or is the theater worth it?

I'd recommend a theater if possible. It's, as noted, really a visual and auditory spectacle, which I don't think will come across on a TV.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Mentat in sequels my guess

SPOILERS

w/o going into a full deep dive, Idaho returns as a ghola (basically, a clone) in Messiah and then over the further course of the series many, many Idaho gholas eventually culminate in a final incarnation who is both a Mentat (yes) and a kind of Kwisatz Haderach, and probably the most important character of the last 2 books, which get pretty wild. Far future Duncan is dead serious, deep, melancholic and 100% not a bro. I'd kinda like to see Momoa try for it tbh.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

In the books I'd describe Paul + his mom's relationship as complicated and troublingly close but without sexual overtones. I thought the insertion (heyo) of Oedipal sexual tension in the film was kinda interesting albeit v 21st C, post-Lannister twins. There is book tension between Jessica + Chani but it's more like competing visions of what Paul should be than sexual competition.

 

[Mr. Tea]

One of the worst for that kind of thing is the film Clue, when the gay character solves the mystery and in the process of exposition reveals himself to be some kind of undercover agent, his final flourish "Now I'm going home... to my wife and kids!" - don't worry viewers, the hero isn't a deviant after all! Even when I was at primary school I remember thinking, is this ok?

Ha, that's terrible - when was the film from?

 

[IdleRich]

Just looked it up, 85

 

[Mr. Tea]

It's funny, though - your ex's fanatically ahistorical view of the world. I think it led to some argu... vigorous debates between her and Anna on a few occasions.

 

[luka]

Seems a strange thing to randomly chuck into the mix of a film with countless other themes and subtexts already in there. Especially if it's not gonna be taken further and have any particular significance.... maybe it will.

this is standard now. chuck in a few lines that could conceivably indicate the men are actuly a bit gay and everyone is doing incest and that. its something thats happened to storytelling isnt it, they're not themes at all, theyre just sort of chucked in there without rhyme or reason and not necessarily developed or supported by the rest of the story

 

[IdleRich]

I actually like the idea that not everything has to mean something - if someone coughs loudly early doors you can't necessarily assume they've TB, if someone loss fifty quid betting on football in episode two it doesn't necessarily mean that by episode ten Russian mobsters will be dangling them upside down from a twentieth floor balcony having already taken their house and sawn off seven toes - in short the maxim about the gun on the wall needing to be fired feels old-fashioned and heavy-handed to me.

But maybe there is a happy medium, what you are describing is the pendulum swinging back way too far the other way and the director covering every single wall with an arsenal of weaponry. Instead of writing a genuinely surprising story just bury the reader under an avalanche of cliches so they can't know which will emerge. I suppose it's a useful way out for the hack author but no substitute for genuine artistry.

 

[Mr. Tea]

This may be of interest to some - attempts to recreate the original SFX of the shield-sparring scene in Lynch's Dune, in the modern adaptation:


You might want to skip the bits where they're plugging the fancy laptop.

 

[sus]

I actually like the idea that not everything has to mean something - if someone coughs loudly early doors you can't necessarily assume they've TB, if someone loss fifty quid betting on football in episode two it doesn't necessarily mean that by episode ten Russian mobsters will be dangling them upside down from a twentieth floor balcony having already taken their house and sawn off seven toes - in short the maxim about the gun on the wall needing to be fired feels old-fashioned and heavy-handed to me.

But maybe there is a happy medium, what you are describing is the pendulum swinging back way too far the other way and the director covering every single wall with an arsenal of weaponry. Instead of writing a genuinely surprising story just bury the reader under an avalanche of cliches so they can't know which will emerge. I suppose it's a useful way out for the hack author but no substitute for genuine artistry.

Narrative incoherence subsidizes the Chekhov gun. Widespread adoption of Chekhov's gun subsidizes the red herring. Meaning is ambiguity.

 

[woops]

I thought rich was on about the maxim gun for a sec

 

[Mr. Tea]

Ironically, the widespread use of personal shields in the Duneiverse has rendered Chekov's gun virtually obsolete.

 

[Corpsey]

On a whim I watched a long video essay explaining the narrative/backstory to the film, using quotes from the books etc.

Then I started rewatching the film, which makes so much more sense when you've filled in the countless seeming blanks it throws you. The most insulting of these (so far) is when the famous fear is a mind killer speech is whispered by Rebecca Ferguson and you need subtitles to understand it. It also results in some hilariously clunky exposition moments.

The soundtrack has its moments but also inclines me to rate Hans Zimmer as a hack, at least on this one. Sometimes I understand that there needs to be a sense of grandeur when you're just watching four people in robes walk down a ramp, but often the music just overeggs everything.

Now, despite all that I'm saying I did enjoy watching it a lot more knowing more of what was going on and seeing how Villeneuve had imagined aspects of the story. I suppose it's a case of a book being so complex that you have to only hint at so many things. A charitable view of this ambiguity would be that it's to get you to explore the books.

Something about Villeneuve movies does repel me, though. They're cold (while making melodramatic gestures). Tactile but unreal. Visually beautiful and bland. Perhaps all this is a deliberate effect?

 

[Corpsey]

What I can never imagine Villeneuve pulling off is something fun or jolly

 

[IdleRich]

On a whim I watched a long video essay explaining the narrative/backstory to the film, using quotes from the books etc.

Then I started rewatching the film, which makes so much more sense when you've filled in the countless seeming blanks it throws you. The most insulting of these (so far) is when the famous fear is a mind killer speech is whispered by Rebecca Ferguson and you need subtitles to understand it. It also results in some hilariously clunky exposition moments.

Yeah this is what I was trying to get at earlier, there are loads of bits which are "sort of" in there. Which seems a weird thing to say about something on the face of it - but I mean that if you had a friend who knew the books and said "is X in there?" then you couldn't say no cos X is mentioned, and in such a way that it is entirely consistent with the books... it's there! Except, if you hadn't read the books, although you might well hear the word as it flies past you would have no idea what they were on about. The back story is not contradicted but it's not there in such a way that you could possibly grasp it unless you have read and remembered the part(s) of the book which fills in the gaps. So it's only there if you already know what it is and to me that feels like sometihng of a cheat - the answer to the question does require qualifying, you can't just say "yes". The film is supposed to be stand alone (I think) and really, as far as X is concerned it's not.

Of course what I'm saying would be a lot more persuasive if I could provide you with a load of examples of things which get the X treatment, and if I had written this just after getting back from the cinema I'm sure I could have done.

 

[Corpsey]

That greyness is something which really bothers me. There's a certain sheen and blandness to a lot of stuff these days that makes it look like a glossy car ad.

This is an interesting one – or at least somebody with more knowledge than me can probably make it seem interesting by pontificating about it

What interests me about it is that Villeneuve is one of those directors like Nolan who has a big audience of people who think they're a gritty cinematic genius, and somehow this is related to their grey, bland, cold view of the world (or other worlds)

I think in a climate of CGI cartoon spectacles (I mean live action/CGI fests like Marvel) this style looks like harsh, bullshitless realism – even if you're depicting a man dressed as a bat beating up a clown

 

[abodywithoutorgans]

tedious film. glad I watched it on my laptop, on the small screen, easy for the well needed pee breaks

 

[Mr. Tea]

Just listening to this now - really nice, worth a spin.

 

[Mr. Tea]