Question about gender

[entertainment]

a) Is it desirable to disregard or annihiliate the concepts of masculinity / femininity altogether?

b) Is it possible to do this or can we only subvert, parody etc.? which is to ask are we dependent upon the energy provided by these concepts/ideals to do anything, even to act in opposition to them?

 

[constant escape]

I tend to ground egalitarian efforts in the simple matter of this: a voice shouldn't be excluded from consequential conversations purely by virtue of its category/demographic.

If voices of different categories/demographics can still afford to have different characteristics and cultures, fine, so long as those characteristics aren't used as some grounds for exclusion.

That said, I think the attempts to neutralize categories like masculine and feminine into characteristically homogenous pools is a somewhat brute-force method of combatting the kind of exclusion in question, no?

Ideally, a dichotomy like masculine and feminine could be embraced without there being some kind of power asymmetry, but seeing as there is such an asymmetry, should we neutralize any and all differences between the two, or should we abstract beyond the particular characteristics, and analyze the (universal?) conditions under which power relations formulate?

Is it reducible to force?

 

[Leo]

https://www.dissensus.com/index.php?threads/14177/

 

[vimothy]

further questions:

what does the existence of trans men and women mean WRT gender?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

a) Is it desirable to disregard or annihiliate the concepts of masculinity / femininity altogether?

b) Is it possible to do this or can we only subvert, parody etc.? which is to ask are we dependent upon the energy provided by these concepts/ideals to do anything, even to act in opposition to them?

a) no. certainly they can/should be critically examined. the key is that no one should feel forced into a particular role through societal etc pressure (or actual force), but broadly, embracing masculinity or femininity is an equally valid choice to rejecting gender binary entirely or choosing to move back and forth between them fluidly.

b) I don't think so, no. it would be more feasible in a transhuman future (which is different from whether it would be more desirable).

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Ideally, a dichotomy like masculine and feminine could be embraced without there being some kind of power asymmetry, but seeing as there is such an asymmetry, should we neutralize any and all differences between the two, or should we abstract beyond the particular characteristics, and analyze the (universal?) conditions under which power relations formulate?

the latter

there isn't a feasible way to "neutralize any and all differences" - also, plenty of the differences aren't of themselves necessarily negative

so you're just left with the conditions (tho I'd leave out "universal") way with which power relations formulate

there's a dynamic of personal choice vs I guess societal responsibility

i.e. I have the freedom to embrace masculinity but the responsibility to try to excise its toxic elements from my behavior

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

what does the existence of trans men and women mean WRT gender?

you'll have to specify, that's an impossibly broad question

 

[constant escape]

i.e. I have the freedom to embrace masculinity but the responsibility to try to excise its toxic elements from my behavior

I suppose one way to articulate it is that some/most of these toxic elements operate underneath our window of self-awareness, a window which can be willfully expanded, through work - which is why I'm hesitant to say that these elements operate in the unconscious.

Defining "toxic" as directive of negative energy to other humans. A sort of seeking-ground of negative psychic energy, which I do believe can be sublimated away from humans and manage to find ground by other means.

Not sure if this redirection from others necessarily entails some kind of self-damage, or if self-damage is contingent upon other factors, and not a necessary consequent of sparing others from your negative energy.

 

[constant escape]

Directing your negative energy at them others is like hurling psychic projectiles at them, in a way:

toxic (adj.)1660s, from French toxique and directly from Late Latin toxicus "poisoned," from Latin toxicum "poison," from Greek toxikon (pharmakon) "(poison) for use on arrows," from toxikon, neuter of toxikos "pertaining to arrows or archery," and thus to a bow, from toxon "bow," probably from a Scythian word that also was borrowed into Latin as taxus "yew." Watkins suggests a possible source in Iranian taxša- "bow," from PIE *tekw- "to run, flee." As a noun from 1890.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

some/most of these toxic elements operate underneath our window of self-awareness, a window which can be willfully expanded, through work

definitely - there are whole fields of study devoted more or less to doing that work

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

the first part of trying to excise toxicity from your behavior is figuring out what's toxic

which in some cases is easy and in other cases is less easy

 

[constant escape]

Perhaps one way to discover what has been secretly operating as toxic is to try to contextualize the sort of dyad that is you-and-your-effect-on-the-shared-world. If you can map out your psychic relationships with others, especially the aspects of them that have been systematized, institutionalized.

And this would be one of the primary uses of philosophy, or at least much of the theory that has been informed by philosophy, no? That is, much of it is oriented around moving/progressing toward some universal, even if the the shared conception of this direction is incorrect/suboptimal.

And I think this is the way to discover the potential/variability across psyches, in terms of the unique existence-strategies that are devised within each psyche.

"Why do I treat Alice like that? What is the spectrum of possible ways I could be treating Alice, and why do I preconsciously "choose" the route/option I do? Does Alice have the same spectrum of possible ways to treat me? How are her choices preconfigured differently than mine are?"

"How does the manner in which I treat Bob differ from the manner in which I treat Alice, and how is this difference informed by the difference between their respective sets of possible ways?"

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

to try to contextualize the sort of dyad that is you-and-your-effect-on-the-shared-world

I don't think most people are approaching it as analytically as you are, but yes, exactly

especially as a man - or any other situation in which benefits from structural inequality - it's incumbent on you (assuming you care) to think about exactly that. this is why you'll run across the idea that's it not women's job to do the work for men - or POC's job to do the work for white people, or etc. the reality as always is messy and complicated - things usually can't be reduced to one binary inequality or asymmetry - but as a praxis of consciousness. it's a particular kind of empathy, a corrective empathy if you will.

 

[constant escape]

"Corrective empathy" is a good term for it.

 

[boxedjoy]

gender is a prison and I'm glad to see society begin to embrace thinking about it in a non-binary manner

 

[subvert47]

a) Is it desirable to disregard or annihiliate the concepts of masculinity / femininity altogether?

b) Is it possible to do this or can we only subvert, parody etc.? which is to ask are we dependent upon the energy provided by these concepts/ideals to do anything, even to act in opposition to them?

Masculinity and femininity are social constructs that change according to time and place. For anyone who doesn't fit any part of the current/local construct (which is probably everybody) it's certainly desirable just to disregard them. Not sure what annihilating them would mean exactly.

 

[subvert47]

what does the existence of trans men and women mean WRT gender?

It doesn't mean anything. Trans people live within social gender constructs, the same as cis (non-trans) people. The only difference is that trans people are likely to have thought about it a lot more.

Thus...

 

[Benny Bunter]

Nowadays people use the word 'gender' to mean so many different and often contradictary things it makes any coherent conversation about it impossible (between certain very polarised groups at least) so I'm in favour of abolishing it.

 

[constant escape]

I personally still don't quite understand the distinction between the popular usages of "gender" and "sex"

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I personally still don't quite understand the distinction between the popular usages of "gender" and "sex"

sex is biological - what genitals, reproductive organs, etc you're born with

gender is a social construct