Question about gender

[constant escape]

and who cares what this hypothetical dude thinks

trans people don't exist in order to help cisgendered people, or anyone, to reflect on gender norms

it's like asking what it "means" for heterosexuality that gay people exist

Well I guess its important in light of any prevailing tendency for non-cis people to be left out of important and political decision making. That would be why the cis-held norms would be worth catering to. Aside from that, the norms held by cis people would be just as trivial as the norms held by non-cis people.

Not sure if this is what vimothy's getting at though.

 

[constant escape]

Same arguably goes from any dimension of demographic power discrepancy. The norms held by the privileged/dominant demographic end up being more impactful than the norms of the oppressed/marginalized, hence the power discrepancy. That would be the value of asking what effect the existence of an alternative/marginal norm has on the dominant/privileged one.

So long as we remember that this power arrangement is the outcome of a wide array of unpredictable and contingent conditions, rather than a reflection of intrinsic and absolute superiority. That would seem to be a middle ground/synthesis perspective, but I could very well be jumping the gun there.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

its important in light of any prevailing tendency for non-cis people to be left out of important and political decision making

well yeah boss but that's exactly what last few decades have been about - struggling against that prevailing tendency

(or longer than that, but taking Stonewall as a watershed moment in the struggle for LGBTQ etc rights)

but the struggle is to be accepted on your own terms, not on straight cis people's terms - that's the whole point of it

same for people of color in relation to white people, women in relation to men, etc

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

it is helpful when people in the privileged group truly internalize what it's about and are able to empathize with the disenfranchised

but it ain't necessary. all that's necessary is acceptance leading to equal treatment. preferably not begrudging but if it is, so be it.

if you look at all these liberation struggles - LBTQI+, feminism, black liberation, etc

they all started off concerned with respectability, with not provoking, and gradually become less concerned with it

it ain't above proving that we meet your terms of acceptability, it's about demanding we be accepted on our own terms as equally human

 

[constant escape]

Totally, perhaps there is a critical difference here between feeling accepted, which needn't be dependent on what the dominant/privileged demographic thinks, and formally being accepted in the terms of the system, which is dependent on what the dominant/privileged demographic thinks.

If I understood your points, that is.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

yeah, but you have it backwards

formal acceptance - equality before the law - is what shouldn't be dependent on what everyone in the dominant demographic thinks

i.e. Eisenhower sending in the army to physically protect the Little Rock Nine from hostile white people

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

"feeling" accepted is also important, but there's not as much you can do about it

I knew a trans woman who transitioned while working at a bank

the company supported her decisions, as it had to by law

many of her individual coworkers did not - she wound up transferring to a different branch to make a clean break and start over with new people

it would be great if they all had, but otoh it would be much, much worse if transitioning put her in danger of losing her job

 

[constant escape]

Even if formal acceptance shouldn't be dependent on what the dominant demographic thinks (which seems a good recipe for egalitarianism), should we for the time being proceed as if it is dependent on what the dominant demographic thinks, which seems evident?

I suppose it would be felt as administering the transformation of the ideology of the dominant demographic, up to the point that said ideology no longer makes any disproportionate value distinctions across demographic lines.

How to put that in less abstract, or more legislative/formal terms, I'm not sure. But it would seemingly need to be a joint administration by both the privileged and disprivileged.

That said, such a transformation might entail some paradoxical development whereby more and more demographics and sub-demographics get demarginalized, accepted within the scope of the dominant demographic's perspective (?), and yet people of all demographics seem to embody a somewhat homogenizing cosmopolitan/globalist culture.

 

[subvert47]

yes I know. that's precisely why I mentioned intersex people.

Not just intersex conditions. Everybody. In that what sexed bodies mean is also socially constructed and cannot be taken in isolation as a supposedly neutral "biological fact". But now we're getting into Butlerian territory, which probably isn't what the OP wanted to discuss.

 

[subvert47]

no, that isn't what @subvert47 meant (correct me if I'm wrong boss)

you're focused too narrowly on trans men and women. anyone of any gender identity can challenge conventional gender roles.

going the other way, trans people can seek to embody very conventional gender roles. i.e. I have known trans women who embrace ultra femininity.

gender identity ≠ gender roles

what trans people do automatically challenge, just by existing, is the notion that your genitals/reproductive organs determine your gender identity

not that it's their responsibility to actively pursue their challenge - though plenty do - just the de facto reality

All that, yes.

But I was also being slightly disingenuous. While a trans person's gender in terms of masculinity, femininity, androgeny, etc can be as variable as any non-trans person's might be – the trans community is, in my experience, far more gender diverse, having by necessity had to think about gender a whole lot more than the average cis person. And would be even more so if trans people didn't often feel obliged (not least for issues of personal safety) to utilize gender in very deliberate ways to emphasize who they are in a gender-normative society.

Here's a nice cartoon about that...

 

[subvert47]

so there's no challenge to the conventional or common understanding of gender? the existence of trans men and women is completely incorporated into what ppl think of as male and female gender roles?

In abstract terms, there's no challenge, no, because trans people's gender can be as variable as any non-trans person. (More so usually - see another reply.)

But the existence of trans does provide a challenge in one clear sense: another challenge to taken-for-granted normativities. In that notions of sex, the body, gender role, gender presentation, and so forth, do not necessarily align in assumed ways; for instance, the normative notion that male physiology = male identity = masculine behaviour and expression = woman-desiring = etc.

Obviously feminism and gay rights challenge normativities as well.

 

[thirdform]

Obviously feminism and gay rights challenge normativities as well.

Gay rights yes, feminism mostly not.

 

[luka]

third is a militant anti femisist for those who dont know. he says its just for fat white women. famous ruck with benny b about it here a few years back

 

[craner]

third is a militant anti femisist for those who dont know. he says its just for fat white women. famous ruck with benny b about it here a few years back

Real Marxists hate feminism.

 

[luka]

they call it 'The Vampires Castle.'

 

[luka]

 

[craner]

Countess Count ruins the joke.

 

[Benny Bunter]

third is a militant anti femisist for those who dont know. he says its just for fat white women. famous ruck with benny b about it here a few years back

Stirring the again, Luka?

Not a 'ruck' - I don't think I ever engaged with him ever apart from eventually asking him to leave me alone, just FTR. And I've got nothing against him or anyone here really, I love this place, it's just I really cannot be arsed with stupid internet beef anymore, it's unhealthy and largely a waste of time, so best leave it there.