Detectives - the dominant characters of the 20th Century Discuss

sufi

lala
The themed or eccentric serial killer's one way to expand the detective novel. You develop the killer into as much of a character as the detective, e.g. the Thomas Harris stuff.
Maybe the serial Killer is the quintessential 21st Century character, taking the mantle from the detective and the cowboy
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
One thing I would like to clarify, in case this thread gives the wrong impression, and that is, I don't consider myself a particular fan of this genre. I suppose I don't mind them on television but it's not something I look out for in terms of books, in fact if anything, the reverse is more the case.

I don't want to say that I look down on Whodunnits as literature but when I am selecting something to read, the crime genre does tend to be amongst the last places I look - with this thread I have been surprised to discover how much I know about them, and I bet that I am not the only one. I think that lends some credence to what I said about the dominance of this form - it's simply impossible to be a person of normal cultural awareness who lived through the latter part of the 20th and NOT know a certain amount about detective stories.
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
Last year there was that thing with Daniel Craig playing a detective. It was the archetypal "classic" Agatha Christie style set up with a treacherous family and their servants staying in a massive mansion for the reading of a disputed will. Something like that anyhow, I suppose it was entertaining enough but far from memorable...

But my point here is that when that film - Knives Out it was called now I come to think of it - hoved into view it was immediately seen as some sort of iroinc homage to films of that type from years gone by (arguably Hateful 8 was another). To me that's clear evidence that that particular part of the detective genre at least is viewed as having expired and gone to the great cinema in the sky... I suppose along with film noir and classic westerns etc, genres which are no longer truly living although occasionally an undead zombie one does come along and is described as a "post-modern take on the western" or a "neo-noir" etc etc (which other dead genres are there? I feel another thread coming on).

I dunno if that is the start of the end with the detective genre as a whole dying piece by piece, mini-genre by mini-genre or - more likely for my money - that the genre as a whole is so big and diverse that that particular type of mystery dying off says nothing whatsoever about the longevity or otherwise of police procedurals or obsessive alcoholics hunting down serial killers etc
 

jenks

thread death
I do think that detective fiction - like other genre fiction- is treated very much as second class writing and for literary snobs to buy into it then it was sold as post modern/ironic etc but much in the same way as sci fi at its best is as good as anything else the detective genre has great writers. I’m no expert but I will often have one on the go - I tend to like series so the characterisation can build over the long run - Martin Beck, Maigret are the two that immediately spring to mind but there was a period of time in the 90s and 00s when I think Ian Rankin’s Rebus was as good as anything I was reading. If he hadn’t been in a literary ghetto he would have won the Booker.
not sure if that answers your post @IdleRich
 

version

Well-known member
I feel the detective novel may have declined somewhat, but TV's absolutely swamped with police procedurals; Sherlock was massive too.
 

woops

is not like other people
I do think that detective fiction - like other genre fiction- is treated very much as second class writing and for literary snobs to buy into it then it was sold as post modern/ironic etc but much in the same way as sci fi at its best is as good as anything else the detective genre has great writers. I’m no expert but I will often have one on the go - I tend to like series so the characterisation can build over the long run - Martin Beck, Maigret are the two that immediately spring to mind but there was a period of time in the 90s and 00s when I think Ian Rankin’s Rebus was as good as anything I was reading. If he hadn’t been in a literary ghetto he would have won the Booker.
not sure if that answers your post @IdleRich
this is why literary fiction is so boring, they refuse anything that smacks of excitement, invention, romance, atmosphere and all the other stuff that genres are made of, leaving very little, just despair
 

jenks

thread death
this is why literary fiction is so boring, they refuse anything that smacks of excitement, invention, romance, atmosphere and all the other stuff that genres are made of, leaving very little, just despair
Possibly a rather sweeping generalisation but literary fiction could learn much from genre. I was struck by how good M John Harrison’s dialogue was, for example - really got that middle that most conversations have without making a big song and dance about it.
 

woops

is not like other people
Possibly a rather sweeping generalisation but literary fiction could learn much from genre. I was struck by how good M John Harrison’s dialogue was, for example - really got that middle that most conversations have without making a big song and dance about it.
possibly but i stand by it, I love MJH he's also a rare example of a genre writer who's taken seriously by the TLS (to take that organ as a synecdoche of the establishment).
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I do think that detective fiction - like other genre fiction- is treated very much as second class writing and for literary snobs to buy into it then it was sold as post modern/ironic etc but much in the same way as sci fi at its best is as good as anything else the detective genre has great writers. I’m no expert but I will often have one on the go - I tend to like series so the characterisation can build over the long run - Martin Beck, Maigret are the two that immediately spring to mind but there was a period of time in the 90s and 00s when I think Ian Rankin’s Rebus was as good as anything I was reading. If he hadn’t been in a literary ghetto he would have won the Booker.
not sure if that answers your post @IdleRich
I totally agree that detective fiction and genre fiction as a whole is looked down on, in more than one medium. In cinema horror films are looked down on by a certain kind of person so they get round that by describing The Shining as "a Kubrick film that uses the tropes of horror" - similarly Margaret Atwood is a literary writer choosing to work within the sci-fi genre.
Trying to think if there is anyone who people try and winkle out of the detective genre in the same way, perhaps Eco with The Name of The Rose.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
this is why literary fiction is so boring, they refuse anything that smacks of excitement, invention, romance, atmosphere and all the other stuff that genres are made of, leaving very little, just despair
I do sometimes wonder what is left for the genre of Literary Fiction. Books that have to carefully avoid being about anything... I know that's not true, but at times it does sort of feel that way.
 

woops

is not like other people
the genre of Literary Fiction
answered your own question there it needs to genre-ify, someone should start up a press churning out paperbacks about scientists contemplating the heat death of the universe then killing their tennis partner's wife as a result
 

version

Well-known member
Trying to think if there is anyone who people try and winkle out of the detective genre in the same way, perhaps Eco with The Name of The Rose.
I think anyone who gets good enough within their field tends to be elevated and treated differently. I get the impression Chandler's seen as more "literary" by virtue of being considered one of the masters of his field. It's still genre fiction, but it's genre fiction literary types are allowed to like because of his stature.
 

woops

is not like other people
I think anyone who gets good enough within their field tends to be elevated and treated differently. I get the impression Chandler's seen as more "literary" by virtue of being seen as one of the masters of the genre. It's still genre fiction, but it's genre fiction literary types are allowed to like because of his stature.
i think it takes a bit more than that - you have to die just as the first film adaptation of your work comes out, be taken up by academia for a bit, and then be rediscovered and canonised after that. i'm about 85% serious
 

version

Well-known member
i think it takes a bit more than that - you have to die just as the first film adaptation of your work comes out, be taken up by academia for a bit, and then be rediscovered and canonised after that. i'm about 85% serious
Are you basing this entirely on PKD?
 

version

Well-known member
When you talk about literary fiction, are you talking in general or about contemporary stuff?
 
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