Burial interview @ Blackdown/Burial album

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
k-punk said:
To elaborate - I think the best dub always has a relationship to a certain sweetness of (the) Song.
YES YES YES!!!

Me and Eden often do mixes where the dubs precede the vocal versions, not the other way round, so the voice / the song break through after being re-positioned in the listener's head by the dubs. And of course, the dancehall I spend most of my time listening to is primary vocal music.

And again, the sweetness of dub is something I am always banging on about in relation to dubstep. That very adjective. Dubstep must not erode into being mere techstep -- there's a place for that harshness, for that inheritance from industrial -- but that industrial harshness was menstrual. Music for menstrual boys. If nothing else, we need light and shade in this music. And already, we're getting it. You'll find it in many DMZ and Loefah tunes, but also some Boxcutter stuff, and crucially, in Dusk & Blackdown's Lata, and in Random Trio's Indian Stomp. (Interestingly, this seems to have been recorded in the midst of a pregnancy - and since the birth is about to occur, we may not hear much more from Random Trio for a while, which would be a shame!) On the Dubstep Sufferah mix, yes you had the grinding, pummeling peak in the middle, but structurally, the real climax is in the quietness of Indian Stomp and the wistfulness of Anti War Dub and the melancholy of K9's Kingstown.

I know I go on about Lata too much, but it really is a vitally important dubstep release. How it's received will be a signifier of how dubstep will develop. (And, pace Hell Science, I'm not saying it ALL has to be soft and sweet!)

Sadly, I haven't heard the Burial album -- but Eden is, slowly, becoming infected with the dubstep virus!
 

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
gek-opel said:
If space is the place, have you heard "Qawalli" by Pinch yet K-punk? Its really delicate and elegant, and very dub- spacially aware. Its another tune that possibly posits a different direction for dubstep to go in, another possible future (more minimal, more basic channel, more beautiful...)
The new VIP mix is even sparser.

you know Hard Wax absolutely adore dubstep? They sell a lot of it too...

personally, I want dubstep with soul samples. I'm working on one right now...
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
The VIP mix is more straight dubstep in the rhythm, (half stepping but still with a certain hi hat swing) but the ultra-minimalism of it is pretty awesome. The melodica type sample sounds almost medieval.

I think the nice thing about Dubstep is that it has crystallised to a certain extent in the public consciousness enough to be a definite "thing", but that there still seem to be a lot of loose ends and a lot alternative avenues left open. What will be interesting is when the next wave of producers, who have come into the scene when it was to a certain extent more defined than before, start making an impact. Will they follow the orthodox half-step or what? Feeling that vocals might be on the way back is quite large.
 

nomos

Administrator
k-punk said:
Autonomic...
:) Thanks

Yes, do check out 'Qawaali' by Pinch. Also 'Saints and Sinners' by Distance (it's at 43:40 in my mix here - a new DL link is further down the thread), which brings back 'feminine pressure' (and, I think, of a less heteronormative variety) via a vocal element while also remaining heavy in the bottom end. I think there's strong potential in dubstep for a reincorporation of elements like this without becoming easy listening the way Goldie and Bukem did.

k-punk said:
I take your point with respect to 'hardcore continuum' - maybe blissblogga could defend its continued use? - but I don't see any better alternatives atm; 'dance music' has horrific associations (Mixmag etc).
Yeah I think that one needs hashing out. I see your point re: 'dance music' though.

k-punk said:
...nothing I've heard from dubstep has drawn me in or seduced me enough to make me want to investigate it in any depth. Your defence is ingenious, but I think that removing things and dubbing them out are quite different. In fact, what you're saying - that dubstep is dubbing 'the formal elements of 2step/early-dubstep itself' - may only be making the point that I.T. and I are making viz. the girl-unfriendliness/ anti-pop nature of the genre....
It wasn't until I actually went to Forward last year that it totally clicked for me. It became very clear that the physicality of it was an essential component. It was oppressive but ecstatic in a way as well. Not so much the No U Turn "hurters' mission." The vibe was very friendly and the music is soothing in an odd way. To call it spiritual would be too simple, but there's something to the idea of it as meditation on the affective enormity of the sound.

Good point on my 'dubbing out' comment. I think the two points are somewhat different but they overlap. I do think that in dubstep production techniques there is an effort to theorise just what can be taken out of, or re-arranged within, a garage riddim while mainttaining a recognisable garage foundation. This is largely an endeavour in and of itself. But then, yes, the removal of "girl-friendly" elements in any music is often a direct attempt to alter the power structures of the scene. And I can see how machismo has been reasserted in late garage. But I'm also unwilling to equate particular non-literal sonics with any given set of gender dynamics because then we get into light-and-safe is for girls, edgy-and-experimental is for boys (although I know neither you or IT are arguing this).

My partner actually felt more comfortable at Foward, in terms of it not being an aggressively macho or predatory environment, than she had at a club since she used to rave. She also generally likes music with a harder edge, but she just doesn't want to deal with the crowd that is usually associated with it (and nor do I). This is why I'm hoping that this heavy, but not intrinsically macho, tendency in parts of dubstep will be develop further and supported, particularly amongst the folks who've seen this cycle a few times so far already.

gek-opel - your points on Burials' production methods are really interesting in this discussion of the 'dub' in dubstep. You're right, he's producing in the flattest possible way - completely counterintuitive to dub production ideals.
 
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nomos

Administrator
Actually, check the Shackelton track at the end of the mix as well. There's definitely an affinity with Burial.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
But in the case of Burial the illusion of spacial depth is contained in its murkiness, in the obviously heterogenous layers of samples, and also in the way that he tends not to overstate things too much. By this I mean that there are often sub-bass patterns but running at a rather more subliminal level than elsewhere in dubstep. Also take for example "south london boroughs" the lead track from Burial's first EP, there's a 2nd minor key theme which is so distant and blurry you can't tell if its massive orchestral stabs heard from a mile away or distorted synths submerged in a blanket of reverb. His use of different themes in the same piece is also what gives his stuff emotional depth- frequently alternating between something quite mean and dark with something more melancholic and airy. In the lo-fi-ness of the whole thing there is also the magical effect I used to find from listening to old audio cassettes - that blurring of the sound at the edges, almost to infinity. Unlike the Fruity/Reason sonics of clarity and artificial crispness present elsewhere...

The bass-pressure effect of hearing Dubstep played out is really noticeable, the sonic warefare shit that Kode-9 goes on about is not theoretical, by any means. I return to Sunn 0)) as well here, cos they are basically all about bass tones, held for as long as possible, and using that to create psychological and physiological effects, creating trance states etc. At DMZ last month the sub was such that glasses were jolted off tables! The effect isn't really violent, but more like being on some kind of strange fun-fare ride, and when the pressure subsides for a moment, you just want it to return, a delicate kind of violence... and the antithesis of raveful Ecstatic up-ness, almost comforting.

Also Autonomic: good stuff mentioning Distance. His tunes certainly have a lot more contrasting elements to most, and the mixture of disembodied cinematic ethnic etheriality (like the 2nd side of "My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts") combined with some sections of almost metallist distortion make his sets much less one note. His background in loving Nu-Metal is a bit strange as well! I'm anticipating his album which apparently is coming out on Planet Mu this year...
 

nomos

Administrator
gek-opel said:
But in the case of Burial the illusion of spacial depth is contained in its murkiness, in the obviously heterogenous layers of samples, and also in the way that he tends not to overstate things too much. By this I mean that there are often sub-bass patterns but running at a rather more subliminal level than elsewhere in dubstep. Also take for example "south london boroughs" the lead track from Burial's first EP, there's a 2nd minor key theme which is so distant and blurry you can't tell if its massive orchestral stabs heard from a mile away or distorted synths submerged in a blanket of reverb. His use of different themes in the same piece is also what gives his stuff emotional depth- frequently alternating between something quite mean and dark with something more melancholic and airy. In the lo-fi-ness of the whole thing there is also the magical effect I used to find from listening to old audio cassettes - that blurring of the sound at the edges, almost to infinity. Unlike the Fruity/Reason sonics of clarity and artificial crispness present elsewhere...
^^ :) yes!

@ k-punk - the Pinch track is available on Bleep, btw.
 

Logos

Ghosts of my life
autonomicforthepeople said:
Good point on my 'dubbing out' comment. I think the two points are somewhat different but they overlap. I do think that in dubstep production techniques there is an effort to theorise just what can be taken out of, or re-arranged within, a garage riddim while mainttaining a recognisable garage foundation.

Digital Mystikz especially come to mind. Their productions above nearly all others seem to deliberately work within the spectral presence of garage. That garage foundation seems to me the one hope I have that dubstep won't degenerate into angry young man synths and noisy breakbeat rivivalism.

Mala's set at Fwd the other week was outstanding, a dense, polyrhymic experience, wonderfully balanced between oppressive physicality and swing.
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
autonomicforthepeople said:
It wasn't until I actually went to Forward last year that it totally clicked for me. It became very clear that the physicality of it was an essential component.

I fully take all these points about dubstep working much better in a club space, but that still means it is lacking something for me. For instance, I heard jungle on cassettes long before I ever heard it played out, and it blew me away. Course going to the clubs took it to a whole new level...

But then, yes, the removal of "girl-friendly" elements in any music is often a direct attempt to alter the power structures of the scene. And I can see how machismo has been reasserted in late garage. But I'm also unwilling to equate particular non-literal sonics with any given set of gender dynamics because then we get into light-and-safe is for girls, edgy-and-experimental is for boys (although I know neither you or IT are arguing this).

Dubstep has never struck me as macho, but it has often sounded oestrogen-deficient to me. The gender question is clearly enormously complex (needless to say). You're right, it's not a question of girls liking light and safe music as opposed to edgy and experimental music; I'd say the gender impasse that afflicts certain scenes has more to do with boys wanting to extirpate the sweet, seeing the sweetness as somehow an impediment to intensity rather than its precondition.

Gek... do you have a website? If not, GET ONE asap...
 
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gek-opel

entered apprentice
It seems to me that there is a central tension between the "dub" (massive crushing basslines, delay and reverbed caverns of sound, chant down babylon rasta-man declamations an all...) and the "step" elements (the skipping hi hats, feminine vocalised melisma, dainty dancing sub bass and spasticated off centre snares), and this tension is central to the appeal of the whole genre really... The "anti war dub" bringing back 4x4 elements into the equation is pretty interesting as well... seeing as 2step emerged from speed garage, but this return doesn't really sound anything like speed garage, weirdly...

There is a sense that most of the people involved at present are aware of these tensions and are creating a bit of a homestatic system... so it doesn't go too far in either direction. So long as it maintains this dynamic between light/dark crawl and skip, male and female, and keeps twisting and inverting these into interesting places, then the future should be worth sticking around for.
 

nomos

Administrator
just to clarify, this sentence (in my post on page 4)...
Feminine pressure, for example, can be seen as a tendency that periodically coincides with these threads but is repeatedly ejected from the main streams for the same reasons
...was meant to end with the words: "k-punk and IT mention." I'm a bit sloppy at times :confused:

Moving on...

k-punk said:
I'd say the gender impasse that afflicts certain scenes has more to do with boys wanting to extirpate the sweet, seeing the sweetness as somehow an impediment to intensity rather than its precondition.
Right.

You and paul.meme make a good point on the sweetness of the song in dub, something that keeps being forgotten by its descendants.
 
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gek-opel

entered apprentice
Re: Gender exclusion...

If you were to look at the evolution of dubstep out of 2step, its kind of like there was a movement to purify the feminine elements out because they had become tarnished by the commerical tracks reaching the charts, and everything turning into tacky cheese featuring Dane bloody Bowers! The slowing down and bringing in of more "dub" ideas came at the second stage when DMZ and Loefah and Kode9 entered the fray (if my thinking is correct). There is probably enough space between now and 2001 (when the commercial 2-step sound mugged all the creativity and cred out of the genre) to legitimately re-introduce those feminine elements. But the key thing would be to make sure they felt alien-- sweet but inhuman, exotic in some respect.

Also: Reading the dubstepforum its clear that the idea of bringing "the ladies" (as I am sure they would put it) back into the scene is an imperative. Whether they take the necessary steps or not is another matter....
 
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nomos

Administrator
gek-opel said:
Also: Reading the dubstepforum its clear that the idea of bringing "the ladies" (as I am sure they would put it) back into the scene is an imperative. Whether they take the necessary steps or not is another matter....
Yes, "the ladies," as eyecandy or cultural producers? I'm never sure that it's so much the latter that the guys are interested in. When I looked at that thread on the dubstep forum it was depressing. Too much talk about women having orgasms listening to the boys' music. This is ultimately why real 'feminine pressure' never really holds on for long, because women who make music are still in the minority in most scenes. The closed homosocial networks that Simon describes in Energy Flash are never disrupted in any fundamental way.

Good obeservation on the different waves of dubstep (though I think Kode 9 predates the DMZ era by at least a couple of years). Maybe Martin will fill us in a bit on that.
 
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k-punk

Spectres of Mark
gek-opel said:
It seems to me that there is a central tension between the "dub" (massive crushing basslines, delay and reverbed caverns of sound, chant down babylon rasta-man declamations an all...) and the "step" elements (the skipping hi hats, feminine vocalised melisma, dainty dancing sub bass and spasticated off centre snares), and this tension is central to the appeal of the whole genre really...

OK, I guess my problem here is twofold.

1. In much of the dubstep I've heard, there seems to be too much 'dub' and not enough 'step' ...

2. That rendition of dub ('massive crushing basslines, delay and reverbed caverns of sound') precisely surrenders it to the punitive/ reductive definition I referred to above. It implies that dub is a set of positive properties rather than a subtractive operation.
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
gek-opel said:
. There is probably enough space between now and 2001 (when the commercial 2-step sound mugged all the creativity and cred out of the genre) to legitimately re-introduce those feminine elements. But the key thing would be to make sure they felt alien-- sweet but inhuman, exotic in some respect.

Yep, I think one of the things that is encouraging about the interview is that Burial both wants to 'stay underground' AND wants women to like it...
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Haha- yes I did kind of get that feeling as well... but still better that than more homosocial club nights, surely?

In terms of women being involved in the production side of things- to what extent was the feminine pressure effect of yore the result of women in the producer's role? I'm not really that well up on the original 2-step scene, not enough to give a proper answer to that question, but my impression at least is that it was predominently male, so I think feminine pressure can emerge without necessarily gender parity existing in terms of control of the means of production... You may be correct as to why it doesn't hold for long... but it would appear that feminine aesthetic characteristics (as we have somewhat sexistly appeared to dub them?) are not necessarily female. So to speak...
 
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gek-opel

entered apprentice
Actually K-punk, in terms of "dub as that which remains when something has been partially erased"- the ghost of a former presence, in other words, its almost like its not so much 2step as such but grime which is the ghost in this particular machine at times...
 

Logos

Ghosts of my life
gek-opel said:
In terms of women being involved in the production side of things- to what extent was the feminine pressure effect of yore the result of women in the producer's role?

Pretty much bugger all...when one thinks of foul play, omni trio etc overwhelmingly male.

In some ways it is about eyecandy but in other ways not...I think its hard to explain. I think in dubstep its about a desire for a mixed crowd a la warehouse parties of yore, so race as well as sex.

I also think the presence of women on the dancefloor physically articulates, or embodies, for a DJ or producer, the kind of balance between light/dark and dub/step you talked about above. Within the hardcore continuum, I get the strong impression that a gender balanced crowd has long been considered as A Good Thing in itself - but especially when the presence of women goes hand in hand with the ruffest music. Think AWOL or Metalheadz.
 
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k-punk

Spectres of Mark
gek-opel said:
Actually K-punk, in terms of "dub as that which remains when something has been partially erased"- the ghost of a former presence, in other words, its almost like its not so much 2step as such but grime which is the ghost in this particular machine at times...

lol, yes... but if grime vox are in the structural position of 'the sweet', it's no wonder dubstep can seem oppressive at times...
 
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