Hip-Hop - breaking news, gossip, slander, lies etc

[nomadologist]

there you go again: kool herc mostly credited as an emcee???

also, i don't know what your wikipedia (the source of the truth?) quote should prove. I read hiphop's roots are in the 50's (roots being not the thing itself, i hope we can agree on that) and forming in the 70's.

The wikipedia quote is to demonstrate that there's no hard-and-fast consensus "truth" as to whether there's some year 0 for hip-hop. I don't really think it matters when hip-hop started--how specific do you go? Down to the first recording? The first day hip-hop was made? It seems like a pretty insignificant and nitpicky point to make when there are so many interesting things that happened around a general time frame when hip-hop was fomenting.

 

[polz]

First PD tries to slaughter me when i don't agree with his fact that hiphop is 35 years old. about which you say

He did seem to know more than you when it came down to it re: "35 Years." He made a very convincing argument:

i take your challenge and explain why i think it's not true. you go out of your way to show i'm wrong and you and pd are right. Then, when it turns out you cant distinguish between kool herc and kool moe dee, you give me this.

I don't really think it matters when hip-hop started

boy, are you a sour loser

 

[nomadologist]

Is this some sort of contest? If it is, it's between you and PD on the "35 years" business. I have no interest in participating in music message board discussions--or any discussion of matters of opinion, for that matter--as if they are "contests" with "winners." I pointed out that PD had presented a clear case for his theory at a certain point in a conversation when you still hadn't. Now that you have presented your case, I can't say that I find your arguments more persuasive than his. I understand where you're coming from, a sort of dialectical historical take on pop culture that relies on canons and the notion of clear and linear narrative progress as the driving force behind any cultural movement (a methodology to which many, many people subscribe), and disagree.

I never said I knew a lot about Kool Herc. I know I don't, and hesitated to say anything definitive about him for that reason. Note the use of "I suppose." I *did* say that not everyone agrees that his career/life/music/activity marks the true literal calendar date pinpointed "beginning of hip-hop." If you do a simple google search of terms like "history" "hip-hop", "origins" or other related terms you will quickly see that this is true.

I've never cared about nitpicking, trivializing crap like defining origins of movements by the literal date, when it comes to any genre music. But in reading this thread and following the discussion of "origin" that formed around the use of a common slang phrase, I did--and still do--find PD's version of events more interesting because I'm much more interested in music as a product of broader cultural trends and forces than I am in drawing up timelines.

If you need to feel as if you've "won" something, go ahead and tell yourself that. Whatever makes you happy.

 

[shudder]

forgetting for a sec all this nice unpleasantness: PD, your response was super totally reasonable and non-angry!! HOWEVER:

You mentioned Canada. I'm from Canada. And It's been a while since I've blown away by anything from my city (toronto). Granted, I'm no head, much more of a tourist w/r/t hip hop. Do you know/like anything recent coming from these parts?

Ok, y'all can get back to fighting if you like.

To whit:
- I agree that the separate existence of each of the four elements isn't really a great way to really find a starting point for hip hop.
- I'm sure PD would agree that the key point is when they started coming together, which he in fact talks about (Herc's graf stuff, etc.)
- A date and time isn't terrible interesting.

 

[nomadologist]

To whit:
- I agree that the separate existence of each of the four elements isn't really a great way to really find a starting point for hip hop.
- I'm sure PD would agree that the key point is when they started coming together, which he in fact talks about (Herc's graf stuff, etc.)
- A date and time isn't terrible interesting.

Thanks, Shudder. I think you're right on all counts. This shit has been boring me for about three pages, so I'm more than done.

 

[polz]

so I'm more than done.

well, i'm done too. though i wasn't bored for three pages, i like a heated discussion, otherwise i wouldn't take part in it.

but i'll shut up now

 

[gumdrops]

kool herc was boring anyway and so were all those early rappers. they didnt talk about selling crack once.

 

[polz]

kool herc was boring anyway and so were all those early rappers. they didnt talk about selling crack once.

i think that you, as a non american who wasn't RAISED on hiphop, are missing out on the lost gem "Crack killed applejack" by General Kane

 

[gumdrops]

polz i think that you are simply missing out on the simple fact that as a non american you cannot understand that these rappers are simply modern griots who dont so much as think about what they write as simply allow themselves to become conduits for all they see around them and filter it in a purified state into their lyrics. they are merely reflecting reality and i thank them for it. all rappers are telling the truth, they are all true documentarians, and i cannot believe that anyone would question the idea that they might not be. i for one take them entirely at their word and cannot imagine why you wouldnt. i also reject the idea that they are often simply portals for living vicariously - i treat jeezy, clipse and TI as being well rounded, panoramic, intimate, and ultra-realistic edifiers of the inner city experience equal to a tv series like the wire.

 

[polz]

do you really refuse to see that the rhizome of the hiphop discours trancends human boundaries, and will never be grasped by the narrow mind of a mere non-american? well, if i wasn't bored already, i am now.

 

[noel emits]

polz i think that you are simply missing out on the simple fact that as a non american you cannot understand that these rappers are simply modern griots who dont so much as think about what they write as simply allow themselves to become conduits for all they see around them and filter it in a purified state into their lyrics. they are merely reflecting reality and i thank them for it. all rappers are telling the truth, they are all true documentarians, and i cannot believe that anyone would question the idea that they might not be. i for one take them entirely at their word and cannot imagine why you wouldnt. i also reject the idea that they are often simply portals for living vicariously - i treat jeezy, clipse and TI as being well rounded, panoramic, intimate, and ultra-realistic edifiers of the inner city experience equal to a tv series like the wire.

LOL

 

[nomadologist]

polz i think that you are simply missing out on the simple fact that as a non american you cannot understand that these rappers are simply modern griots who dont so much as think about what they write as simply allow themselves to become conduits for all they see around them and filter it in a purified state into their lyrics. they are merely reflecting reality and i thank them for it. all rappers are telling the truth, they are all true documentarians, and i cannot believe that anyone would question the idea that they might not be. i for one take them entirely at their word and cannot imagine why you wouldnt. i also reject the idea that they are often simply portals for living vicariously - i treat jeezy, clipse and TI as being well rounded, panoramic, intimate, and ultra-realistic edifiers of the inner city experience equal to a tv series like the wire.

All rappers are telling the truth? "Purified state"? Top 40 hip-hop as a documentary? Yeah, that's exactly what I think! Oh no, wait, I think I've heard that same flavor of boneheaded argument before--from the people who have three year periods that they've scientifically classified and proven were more "fun" eras for hip-hop and will fight for days about which exact year hip-hop "started."

You guys are doing the same thing here you did to PD: choose an extreme position that is a willful misunderstanding of someone's actual views, and then think you have them "pegged" by saying ridiculous shit that they've never said and would never say. You'd be mildly funny, if your parody rubbed up against the truth once or twice. It would be funny, say, if you made fun me for liking to apply critical theory or maybe Jameson to hip-hop. I do that all the time. Polz was slightly more successful in his post, for that reason.

Why don't you go back to consuming American hip-hop albums and culture tirelessly, talkiong to people about "being a man" and "scoring points" in message board conversations, making fun of American slang then telling Americans that it's not really common, then come here and rail against the horrors of drug dealing and its presence in American popular culture. Neither of you have obviously ever been in the same room with a drug (except maybe, what, weed? hash?), hence your extreme sensitivity to its presence in lyrics, so I know it might be difficult at first. But whether you like it or not, drug use and distributing plagues the inner city in America. It's bound to pop up now and then in music written by people from the inner city in the U.S. If you're going to continue in your vigilant crusade against any hip-hop that isn't to your liking, you're going to have to be prepared for what's out there, all those monsters lurking around every corner, with a rock of crack and a contract for your soul.

Remember to thrown in lots of comments about how unrealistic it is to talk about selling drugs, while simultaneously condemning rappers like Jeezy for very literally "promoting" drug dealing. That will really demonstrate how clear your grasp on the socio-political struggles of the black American youth is.

 

[gumdrops]

Go play some violent video games, then come here and rail against the horrors of drug dealing. Neither of you have obviously ever been in the same room with a drug (except maybe, what, weed? hash?), hence your extreme sensitivity to its presence in lyrics. Most people don't even notice or care that Jeezy mentioned crack. Whether you like it or not, drug use and distributing plagues the inner city in America. Get over it.

i dont play violent video games. its strictly old donkey kong and mario bros for me (although mario does it on little characters heads to kill them. hmmm...). since youre all for playing this personal-experience card, i know friends of friends that have dealt in the past, and no, most of them didnt want to do it. i dont know any scarface types though, no. sorry. maybe you can get some of the real dealers you know to come on dissensus and we can see what they think. i dont know about most people not caring about jeezy mentioning crack. have you not read any articles or reviews or blogs about him or checked out any hip hop message boards when he first came out? a lot of people care very much, actually. im not fucking stupid, of course i know drug use and sales plague inner cities. my problem isnt rappers talking about dealing drugs or even taking drugs (i would actually like to hear more from rappers talking about doing coke, that would be a nice glimpse from the other side) rather, how they talk about it. ive said this time and time again but you insist on continually linking it to REALITY and how it relates to REAL LIFE as if jeezy and TI are spearheading some sort of hip hop neo realist movement. im more interested in HOW they talk about it. im not exactly alone either - everyone from nick sylvester at the village voice to killer mike has questioned the simplistic treatment of drug dealing in a lot of modern hip hop. if you enjoy that - and its clear you do - then fine. i like the clipse too, but that doesnt mean im just going to agree or defend every single thing they say or do.

i do wonder though, if rappers were talking all the time about say, sexual assault (and this goes on a lot too so you have your all important reality-reflection quota met) in a carefree way, you would just be saying 'oh but its just reflecting whats happening...' like thats makes it fine. ive got no problem with artists talking about real life things, thats a good thing IMO, its one of the features of hip hop that made it special - that it was so intent on delivering realism (albeit through heavy self aggrandisement), but just saying its 'reality' isnt really good enough when it comes to stuff like cracksploitation (lol@the term but it seems to fit here). its how its dealt with thats important to me. jeezy is often like the straight to DVD 'urban action' films you get, rather than the wire.

 

[nomadologist]

Why is it so hard to understand that someone can write sensationalized lyrics about a general phenomenon that does exist and IS a REAL problem? Maybe you don't like how certain rappers sensationalize that. Good for you! I don't mind sensationalism in hip-hop lyrics, just like I don't mind it in rock or pop.

If you can't understand that, I really don't see the point in continuing to talk about this.

 

[nomadologist]

The way sensationalized lyrics relate to real life is in the same way any artistic device that exaggerates something and draws it into relief so we can see some things more clearly than we otherwise might. I don't think that lyrics need to mirror reality in order to have social value or relevance, no. Why you're leaping from me accepting lyrics about sensationalized violence or drug dealing, etc., to me "enjoying" them is beyond me...

 

[nomadologist]

Whoa whoa--"neo-realism"? You're completely misunderstanding me if you think I'd ever use that idea and apply it to hip-hop like Clipse. Clipse may be social realists in the sense that they're providing social commentary, but definitely through using a highly sensationalized picture of our late capitalist hypertopia in phantasmagoric detail. If the picture they paint is extreme, it's because our condition is.

This is where I get into theory that it's obvious no one here cares about, so don't bother thinking about that if you don't want to. I'm just saying, "neo-realism" has nothing to do with why I'd like any hip-hop. It would take a long time to explain where I'm coming from, but I think you've got me confused with someone else or something...

 

[ramadanman]

...definitely through using a highly sensationalized picture of our late capitalist hypertopia in phantasmagoric detail...

exactly what i was thinking

 

[gumdrops]

Why is it so hard to understand that someone can write sensationalized lyrics about a general phenomenon that does exist and IS a REAL problem? Maybe you don't like how certain rappers sensationalize that. Good for you! I don't mind sensationalism in hip-hop lyrics, just like I don't mind it in rock or pop.

If you can't understand that, I really don't see the point in continuing to talk about this.

first of all, i understand it. it just doesnt do much for me hearing cliched lyrics from a rapper sounding dead/bored about selling coke for the millionth time. im bored of it. if they were even shocking (ie REALLY pushing the gangsta template to the next level) i wouldnt mind, but theyre not.

and yes, i treat lyrics about things like drug dealing with a bit more seriousness than i do other subjects. i dont have a problem with sensationalism in and of itself, and once again, i dont have a problem with guys rapping about selling drugs (HELLO! I LISTEN TO HARDCORE HIP HOP!), but i like SOME sort of attempt to give it a bit of depth (or conscience or just some sort of perspective about other people other than themselves - but then thats hip hop for you) usually rather than 'haha did i tell you i cook crack?' and little else.

you say how i shouldnt object to any of this regardless because 'people cook crack to sell - BIG DEAL' (and its you that keeps insisting on bringing up real life) and yes it happens, yes its unfortunate that many have to go that route, but sorry, sympathetic as i might be to someone having to go a route they might not want to, that doesnt mean im supposed to overlook all the other shit that usually comes with drug dealing. but if you prefer to look at it purely sympathetically (you say youve grown up around drugs so see nothing wrong with that which suddenly puts your stance on this into sharp focus), fine. anyway, i dont see the point in continuing this argument, i think ive said everything i can.

 

[nomadologist]

you say how i shouldnt object to any of this regardless because 'people cook crack to sell - BIG DEAL' (and its you that keeps insisting on bringing up real life) and yes it happens, yes its unfortunate that many have to go that route, but sorry, sympathetic as i might be to someone having to go a route they might not want to, that doesnt mean im supposed to overlook all the other shit that usually comes with drug dealing. but if you prefer to look at it purely sympathetically (you say youve grown up around drugs so see nothing wrong with that which suddenly puts your stance on this into sharp focus), fine. anyway, i dont see the point in continuing this argument, i think ive said everything i can.

i didn't tell you that you *shouldn't* do anything. object to anything you want to object to, by all means. i really don't care either way.

i didn't say that i see nothing wrong with drugs, either. two of my friends died from heroin overdoses by the time i was 20. i've seen drugs do really terrible things to people. i just don't think the worst thing about drugs and the problems they cause is the dealing of drugs and/or the talking about dealing drugs that occurs in hip-hop. the problems drugs exacerbate run much deeper than any sensationalistic song will do justice to. it's great if you like music that explicitly moralizes, i like some hip-hop with anti-drug themes. to each his own. i'd never try to tell someone what they should think is right.

 

[gumdrops]

i just don't think the worst thing about drugs and the problems they cause is the dealing of drugs and/or the talking about dealing drugs that occurs in hip-hop. the problems drugs exacerbate run much deeper than any sensationalistic song will do justice to. it's great if you like music that explicitly moralizes, i like some hip-hop with anti-drug themes. to each his own. i'd never try to tell someone what they should think is right.

well of course i dont think hip hop is making dealers out of listeners. i dont think any music is THAT effective. if it were, then public enemy would have solved all problems in new york ghettos by 1993 lol. but youre absolutely spot on that i like music that explicitly moralises. i dont really listen to anything else in fact. right now im thinking that 'hey this racism thing is pretty bad maaaaan' so have had this song below on loop all day. dont know about you but its enlightened me and put everything into perspective.

Yo G, yo Kool G, yo
I'm doin this right here
We got Big Daddy Kane over there
We all gonna do just one part
Because you know, we came a long way
You know, from back in Martin Luther King days, Malcolm X
[Ain't hard to tell] You know, now now that we see
Nelson N-Nelson Mandela's free
We gonna talk about this, is e gonna talk about this racism
Stop that, you know what I'm sayin, we gonna stop that
So G, why don't you just do your rhymin part, and then I'll come on after you
[Aight, check it out, here we go, yo]

Verse One: Kool G Rap

I'm tryin hard to explore, I'm not sure
What all the racial war for
It's makin me more sore
I walk through a color blind corridor
Seekin, for peace in the people I'm meetin
Black white and puerto-rican men are greetin each other
Just like brothers, there's plenty and many of others
You can discover, kids fathers and mothers
A meltin pot, no one felt they got prejudice
Listen I could never assist someone diss this
A landscape, with a dark and a light handshake
Havin fun, without one bein a fake snake
So let's form a rainbow over the mountain
And let's drink from the same water fountain
Let's make our Earth Day a story of
people that walk through the same territories
Color or creed, is no need for a man to bleed
I beleive, we all breathe the same seed
Unless it's diluted, for somethin to intrude it
Then I see your family tree was uprooted
So don't be foolish if you're Jewish or Hindu
The racial manual is the evil that men do
I was raised in a nation of Asian
Hate shouldn't seperate Jamaican from Haitian
So if you're givin in your ears I hope your hear me and
Siberian's no better than Nigerian
I bring a rattle to a battle that you see me in
I'm no villian so why would I be killin indians
My nationality's reality
And yo a prejudiced man is of a devil mentality
These are words of a wise man, wisdom
Take a taste and erase the racism

Chorus: Bizmarkie

The ink is black, the page is white
Together we learn how to read and write
People are black, got people that's white
Let's stop racism, and, let's unite

Verse Two: Big Daddy Kane

[Yo yo Kane, why don't you do your part
and then let me do mine and then we get outta here
go ahead, bet]

In the days of slavery
Some got to run away and many got done away
Inferiority is what some men say
But that shit played out with Kunta Kinte
Then again in the streets of New York
I think of Yusef Hawkins, and I see you'e still stalkin
And when I think of barriers like Bensonhurst
Huh, notice how I mentioned hearse
We got to better this world of prejudice
People, make peace, and learn to live equal
Cause I don't look at myself as a
Coon or a mooley that would have to say massa
You better believe that I'm an asiatic descendant
And I know what's been amended and intended
So let's fulfill and get real, and try to build
a united nation, eliminate segregation
I know there's different strokes for different folks
but I've also acknowledged what hatred provokes
So don't hate me or try to underrate me
Cause I collect ends drive a Benz and live greatly
And we can all live together in harmony
Without thinkin what color is harmin me
If I'm a slave I'm a slave to the rhythm
To E-R-A-S-E the racism

Chrous

Outro: Bizmarkie

To the black and the white
The red and the yellow
To all the nationalities
I'd like to say hello
And I hope they stop racism and it's comin from our hearts
Me, Kool G Rap, Polo, Big Daddy Kane, Cool V, and of course
The Diabolical Bizmarkie I hope ya stop racism
Peace!