Reynolds' Pazz & Jopp essay

gek-opel

entered apprentice
http://www.villagevoice.com/pazzandjop06/0706,reynolds,75737,22.html

Reynolds' makes some interesting points here, but I can't help the feeling that he's being somewhat disengenuous as to the de-poptimization of "hipster" (he uses that a lot unproblematically) tastes. He also presumes that the pop-picks before weren't chosen on pop-positive rockist grounds of progressiveness, sonic ingenuity, auteurism (ie all the Timba-love) etc etc, rather than the pure popist position he imagines being corroded by dubstep, metal and noise. Thoughts?
 

swears

preppy-kei
I think the popularity of metal with hipsters lately can be attributed to the oh-you-didn't-expect-me-to-like-that-but-ahhhh-actually-I-do factor, and the fact that nobody wants to be seen dead liking indie-rock anymore.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
i think there are always lulls in the production of "music i enthusiastically love." 2006 was no different for me than a lot of other years i can think of on that front (i had that feeling every other year in the late 90s.) that's how the industry works, that's how creativity works. ebbs and flows. maybe next year will be awesome. i don't measure everything in terms of calendar years, personally, so i suppose i don't have the same concern for a "year in music" and its relative greatness.

i thought it was interesting where mr. reynolds says that dubstep was plastered all over "children of men." i only remember hearing it a couple times, for a few seconds each. and i know mr. cuaron (his son is one of my really good friends) and his process for choosing soundtrack music has a lot to do with what kind of promo's get sent to him and the producers. there are aesthetic considerations that go into it all, but i don't think he's an especially huge dubstep fan or anything...although he's been living in london for a few years now, he may be turning british. there's something in the water that turns you into a dubreggae fan over there or something. wink.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
i also have not noticed the "return to rockism" of which mr. reynolds speaks. most people i know are looking far and wide to new genres, getting interested in music on the periphery, not afraid to like ciara singles *and* hot chip.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
I think there are other reasons too, as it has expanded into prog and avant-noise territories, which have nothing at all to do with indie rock in any form.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
yeah, but here's the thing: i don't know a single person who likes the new "hipster metal." and i know a whole hell of a lot of hipsters.
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
i also have not noticed the "return to rockism" of which mr. reynolds speaks.

id say its pretty apparent in the british charts. indie is again the main genre being invested in, promoted and sold. dance mags are even featuring rock bands and popstars on their covers and running articles on them. rock is again the dominanting, dictating force in british pop music with everything else playing second fiddle. its like theyve decided that indie is a much safer bet right now/must be kept at the top.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
hmm. but when wasn't it? (i'm thinking of brit pop in the 90s. i don't know anything about the british charts of about 10 years ago...)
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Also, ignore indie's pop success. It rests not on its rock-ness (its authenticity or whatever) but rather on a careful commercial triangulation effect as the final battle for CD sales occurs.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
yeah, what preceded the return to rockism? i'm confused by that idea. i suppose he's talking about the way indie rock has crossed over and basically become "pop", then?

i think this happened a while ago in the U.S. i think indie that's ranking high on the billboard pop charts is a lot like what mall-punk was about 10 years ago here. there's always a preeminent rock scene that gets top 40 play, it's just swung around to indie sonics rather than the Good Charlotte sound of yore lately.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
No, this is a separate issue. Also, US is still somewhat dominated by hip hop and R'n'B no? UK is utterly decimated by MOR-safe ultra whitebread indie, but its success comes from triangulating the appeal to the remaining young and old who still purchase CDs, nothing more fundamental. Most people are still fundamentally rockist to the core. But this is a side issue from the so-called hipster music market that Reynolds' delineates (I actually think he means underground music listeners- since plenty of the people interested in this music are as likely to be bearded middle-aged avant-gardists as sneering brooklynites or whatever...)
 

dHarry

Well-known member
Funny how scorn and godflesh seemed to combine dubstep, hip-metal and now-noise avant-la-lettre? (memories of the future?)
 

swears

preppy-kei
I think there are other reasons too, as it has expanded into prog and avant-noise territories, which have nothing at all to do with indie rock in any form.

Well, that's my point. It's un-indieness is appealing to those hoping to appear to be going against the grain.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
I think I understand. I do think hipster is a category that has broader reach than just 20-something urbanites, especially when it comes to music.

The U.S. top 40 is a mixed bag, now, with a lot of really bad grunge and mallpunky stuff, then there's the ballady R&B, the pretty regularly occurring massive hip-hop track, and then there's Death Cab type of indie rock making appearances now.

I think there problem is not that there aren't good musicians, but probably more due to the fact that the industry doesn't support the talent that's out there. This happened before in the 90s when Arista almost went bust after signing Whitney Houston to that exorbitantly expensive contract. The hits are no longer so surefire coming from the teen divas of the early oughts. The industry's cooling down on the tween-baiting. Trying to unite age demographics with MOR-y new indie rock.
 

mms

sometimes
... says that dubstep was plastered all over "children of men." i only remember hearing it a couple times, for a few seconds each. and i know mr. cuaron (his son is one of my really good friends) and his process for choosing soundtrack music has a lot to do with what kind of promo's get sent to him and the producers. there are aesthetic considerations that go into it all, but i don't think he's an especially huge dubstep fan or anything...although he's been living in london for a few years now, he may be turning british. there's something in the water that turns you into a dubreggae fan over there or something. wink.


The choosing of the soundtrack was entrusted to the guy who introduced people like photek to virgin. forgot his name, steve someone, but maybe the final nod of choice is from the director. Anyway a soundtrack isn't just the soundtrack whilst the film is on, it's usually avaliable on cd. And the soundtrack contains alot of background dubstep. soundtrack albums like the pulp fiction album etc are often introductions to slightly obscured music for alot of people.

metals a funny one. i think its the abstraction and getting away from formal things like verse chorus/ mid range, melody, etc things that esoteric electronics have held dear, also the fact that alot of young kids grew up on metal, or a form of it at some time. this is a more sophisticated coming to terms with the bad taste, dodgy politics and stereotypes of that genre.
Also i think doom and weed procrustination music has a kind of mediative quality that feels more 'real', than the heavily marketed bright shiny forces of pop.

It's interesting that all these musics are very physical as well. They move your physical body and mind at loud volumes, they actually effect you, can change moods, can do strange things to you loud. Maybe this is partly where the meaning is to be found.
electric wizard split up years ago though didn't they?
 
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noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Well, that's my point. It's un-indieness is appealing to those hoping to appear to be going against the grain.

Bloody hell! Anyone listening to music for the sake of appearances is really not worthy of discussion. Maybe hipsters just aren't as hip these days.
 

dHarry

Well-known member
i also have not noticed the "return to rockism" of which mr. reynolds speaks. most people i know are looking far and wide to new genres, getting interested in music on the periphery, not afraid to like ciara singles *and* hot chip.

The rockism is in the three scenes he discusses - fierce loyalty, anti-commercialism, authenticity etc. Preceding this rockism was/is the overt commercialism of uk garage, r&b and Killers/White Stripes et al indie-schmindie of the 00s? And the general hipster mix'n'match you refer to, of liking a bit of Timbaland, post-rock, Girls Aloud, crunk, folk... (po-mo in a word, or two).
 
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nomadologist

Guest
The choosing of the soundtrack was entrusted to the guy who introduced people like photek to virgin. forgot his name, steve someone, but maybe the final nod of choice is from the director. Anyway a soundtrack isn't just the soundtrack whilst the film is on, it's usually avaliable on cd. And the soundtrack contains alot of background dubstep. soundtrack albums like the pulp fiction album etc are often introductions to slightly obscured music for alot of people.

Yeah, have to say I haven't checked out the soundtrack album. I'm thinking back to Great Expectations and some of the smaller projects, used to stay in his apartment with some of the reels. Alfonso wanted Frank Zappa to be on the GE soundtrack originally, but the producers squashed that right quick. I noticed the Mexican band's cover of the Rolling Stones song--AC owns a couple labels as an investment in Mexico so I thought that might be where that came from. A kinda cute inclusion.

Anyway, I thought the dubstep interludes fit very well. Loved the film...I almost want to go see it again...
 
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