Reynolds' Pazz & Jopp essay

[nomadologist]

We have had this argument before, and I still don’t like that definition. Your 18-35 in-the-know demographic I would rather define as ‘hip’, leaving ‘hipster’ to denote a certain sub-culture (or, perhaps, a mode of being).

Until you can show me some figures in some markets that prove that hipsters are some sort of real aesthetic presence rather than hyperconsumers of the most particular and cutting-edge order, I will firmly stand by the "early adapter" definition used to garner fantastic results by audience research data miners and various media outlets.

 

[gek-opel]

In what way?

Well its not innately poptimistic, certainly, but minimal lacks all of the qualities which he spends a large part of his article discussing (heaviness, intensity etc). Im not sure how one would classify the "authenticity" of minimal.

 

[nomadologist]

Thank you for the link, but I don't see any of the bands whom you mentioned in those charts, nor in the current Billboard Modern Rock charts, nor in the Hot 100, nor anywhere else (I may be wrong!).

Though by no means am I pretending to be an expert here, I have the impression that in the US "indie" rock of the Of Montreal/Grizzly Bear variety simply does not sell anywhere near the levels that hip-hop, r&b, modern country, and corporate emo/'modern' rock of the fallout boy/my chemical romance variety sells. Am I wrong?

I saw some of them. Look again. Joanna Newsom is on there. I was looking at 2006, not 2007, mostly. Look at Billboard's site at the Billboard Hot 200.

Indie sounding albums still don't sell nearly as well as the blockbuster monster major label stuff, but their presence is definitely felt! Remember when Jimmy Eat World was considered an "underground" band?

 

[Guybrush]

i should qualify that by saying early adapter. everyone's a consumer but early adapters are considered the most important in the "biz" sector

So the difference between ‘hipsters’ and ‘hip people’ is that the ‘hipsters’, in addition to being early adapters, are also hyper-consumers?

 

[swears]

I thought it was all tortoise-esque post rock and sonic youth?

Dunno, got the impression all the cool older kids were into Modest Mouse, Pavement, Sonic Youth, Eels, Beck, a bit of the less out-there post-rock like Mogwai...all not a million miles from indie.

 

[gek-opel]

Until you can show me some figures in some markets that prove that hipsters are some sort of real aesthetic presence rather than hyperconsumers of the most particular and cutting-edge order, I will firmly stand by the "early adapter" definition used to garner fantastic results by audience research data miners and various media outlets.

Yes but the kind of hipsters Reynolds' refers to aren't early adopters, as who expects, seriously now, there to be much of a mainstream pay-off for any of these genres? First drone metal album in the top ten and the drinks are on me... so i'm not quite sure how interesting this information is. And indeed, all of the pop-flavoured stuff mentioned upthread was very much NOT discovered by hipsters, (whose pop-discoveries like Annie etc are marked by grotesque commercial failure).

 

[mms]

I think "Hipster" conflates several separate models of consumption, and involves more than mere hyper-consumption[/QUOTE

not sure if its a hyperconsumer - a shrewd early adopter maybe, with rariefied needs to get one on from the next music fan maybe.. people that need something new all the time ..at least people i consider to be hipsters kinda behave like that.

 

[nomadologist]

No. There's no difference between hipsters and hip people. And I agree with MMS up there: the reason why car companies use M.I.A. is because, being "hipster" endorsed for a while, that meant M.I.A. was cool with the sort of urbanites/suburbanites/rural sophisticates who SET trends, rather than follow them. Being cool with the TRENDSETTING hipsters is a way of garnering credibility for your brand.

 

[noel emits]

I think the appeal of dubstep, metal and noise is that they sound good to people with open ears right now (or rather, four years ago ). The music caters to psychological and spiritual requirements, that's why people like it. And the same goes for minimal techno too, just in a big club dancefloor context.

 

[nomadologist]

God I hate Annie!

Gek, your post brings me back to my original question: who are these droves who like hipster metal? I've literally never met one person who's into it.

 

[gek-opel]

There's loads on here!

 

[nomadologist]

huh. i really never noticed. maybe i don't know the names of the bands very well or something...

 

[Guybrush]

I am hip (= I know what’s in), but I am not a hyper-consumer by any stretch (nor do I want to be). What does that make me?

 

[swears]

But when metal goes so far into these territories like drone, is it really still metal? What's there to distinguish it from the sort of lo-fi ambient stuff you got on labels like Kranky ten years ago? It's mastered louder?

 

[gek-opel]

But an interesting question arises-- is it possible to ever remove from the event of consumption the element of appearance, of using it as a (very possibly illusory) method of manipulating yr image, if not before a third party then at least the "big other"?

 

[shudder]

@swears: b/c the ppl who are making the metal-drone used to make metal metal, or have metal on the rest of their album, or have fans who listen mostly to metal, go to metal shows, etc.

 

[shudder]

But an interesting question arises-- is it possible to ever remove from the event of consumption the element of appearance, of using it as a (very possibly illusory) method of manipulating yr image, if not before a third party then at least the "big other"?

who's gonna know what songs I'm buying of the iTunes store?

 

[nomadologist]

You know what I think is hard to reconcile here: the U.S. market/charts with the U.K market/charts. There are just sooo many more people in the U.S. There are so many markets here. So many niche markets. So many albums sold. We're seriously flooded with new releases over here, and very few albums stay on the charts for very long. I remember being astounded when I was in Germany/France at how long a single song would stay at number one. An entire summer in Europe and barely ripple in the charts. In America the turnaround is much much faster.

Dubstep/grime/etc. has very limited exposure here. People who are game for it seem to be liking it but it doesn't have the same cultural import or heft over here. It's not a next big thing here, at all. It's a nice import from across the pond that's filling a void where American indie/electronic music has been boring for a while now.

Metal has always has a broad appeal in the U.S., but I still think those into hipster metal are just grown up metalheads from way back who liked original metal as teens.

 

[nomadologist]

But an interesting question arises-- is it possible to ever remove from the event of consumption the element of appearance, of using it as a (very possibly illusory) method of manipulating yr image, if not before a third party then at least the "big other"?

I don't know if it is. It doesn't seem possible to me.

 

[noel emits]

First drone metal album in the top ten and the drinks are on me...

I wouldn't underestimate how mainstream big business pop can and will incorporate any underground trend once it's big enough.

If nothing else marketing and economics will see to that.