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nomadologist

Guest
Does it mark one out as being middle or upper class to be habitually polite?

Does minding Ps and Qs assist the smooth running of society under less than ideal conditions, or is it just a veneer of civility that obscures true power relationships and something we could do best without?

1.) Yes

2.) The latter
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
How are we defining 'polite' here? If we're talking about stuff like knowing which knife and fork to use, saying "bathroom" and "pardon?" instead of "toilet" and "what?" - things that used to be regarded as signs of 'good breading' - then I'd have to agree. If we're talking about simple everyday politeness like holding a door open for someone carrying things, or giving up your seat on a bus for an old person or a pregnant woman - well, that's just common courtesy, isn't it? You don't have to be of a certain class to realise that they're just nice, civil things to do for people.

Things like eating with your mouth open - classic 'stuff your mum would tell you off for' - is sort of intermediate. I don't think there's anything wrong with looking down on people who act in a wilfully slobbish way.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
How are we defining 'polite' here? If we're talking about stuff like knowing which knife and fork to use, saying "bathroom" and "pardon?" instead of "toilet" and "what?" - things that used to be regarded as signs of 'good breading' - then I'd have to agree. If we're talking about simple everyday politeness like holding a door open for someone carrying things, or giving up your seat on a bus for an old person or a pregnant woman - well, that's just common courtesy, isn't it? You don't have to be of a certain class to realise that they're just nice, civil things to do for people.

Things like eating with your mouth open - classic 'stuff your mum would tell you off for' - is sort of intermediate. I don't think there's anything wrong with looking down on people who act in a wilfully slobbish way.

The knife and fork stuff is etiquette, not politeness. Different kettle of fish, for nobs (or knobs) only.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Yes, etiquette, that's the word I was looking for.

I guess my stance would be that it's definitely a class signifier ('sign of poshness') to know which knife and fork to use (out of a large assortment, say) but I think it's important to know how to use a knife and fork. And only to produce a loud, gutteral and fruity belch at the end of the meal if the food was exceptionally good.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
Zhao, how does the education system work in China? Can anyone get a pHD if they have the ability or is there an elite who have access to higher education? Do you have to pay for it?

How did you get from China to America?
Are we talking mainland or Hong Kong? I am very ignorant and want to be taught but I imagine it is hard to get enough money to leave mainland China for most people.

Sorry for my ignorance.

When I was a teenager in the UK everyone got free higher education and a grant to help pay for living expenses. That is gone now, you have to borrow money and pay fees.

super late reply...

free, and equal opportunity for everyone to get higher education in China (the bribes and backdoor connections excepted), but very competitive academically. all the students are bent on out-scoring eachother since highschool, well, the ones that don't head toward organized crime that is (my childhood best friend, a girl 4 days older than me, exceptionally intellegent, did precisely that. she was importing and exporting arms, guns, drugs after dropping out of highschool. she was busted, but had connections or something, so didn't serve much time. now she is a business exec living in Canada, making oodles of cash -- but the point is, if I had stayed in China, 99 out of 100 I would have done the same thing - back in the 80s it was still very repressive and stifling, especially for anarchists like us.) so as a result (or because of? not sure) of the competition, the level of education is very high comparatively. for instance when I came to the US age 12, I had highschool math levels.

we left BeiJing, China because my parents were invited to teach and work in physics departments in universities. we did not need very much money to leave, but getting the visa took 2 or 3 years of bureaucratic headaches.

how is the dole in UK? is it drastically diminished from decades past? from what I understand, artists used to be able to survive, albeit meagerly, entirely on it and make their work.

what is unemployment level there? I hear in Germany it's something close to 30%. and in francce, 25% or something...
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
In a forum milieu, like Dissensus, there is also a case to be made for politeness as a way of giving diffident folks a say. My experience from other forums is that an uninhibited debating climate unfailing leads to the bigmouths ruling supreme, and good, interesting discussion suffering immeasurably for it.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
what is unemployment level there? I hear in Germany it's something close to 30%. and in francce, 25% or something...

In the UK at the moment it's pretty low by recent historical standards, 5.4% according to the Wiki page. However I think a large part of the apparent decrease in recent years is the number of school-leavers now going to university or taking part in training schemes of some kind, rather than actually working.

The unemployment in France and Germany is much higher but nothing like as high as that - 9.1% and 8.4%, again from the Wiki. As with the UK, 'effective' unemployment may be higher than that.

Edit: zhao may also be interested to note that kids from Chinese families get the best school results in the UK out of all ethnic groups. There seems to be a real culture of academic achievement going on there.
 
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I don't know how much they pay any more, last time i was on the dole was around 1996, i was getting £31 a week and my rent paid. I probably spent £12-15 on food and the same on bills leaving approximately nothing to do things like get on a bus and look for work or have any fun.
I didn't do it for long.
After a few months you have to prove you are trying to get a job (show letters, rejections etc) and after a bit longer you get given some minimum wage job whether you want it or not.
there are ways to stay on the dole of course but in my experience it's more work and effort to play the system than to go and do something else instead.

the worst thing is being force to do some crappy job that pays LESS than you would get on benefit, and they give you benefit to make it up to the same amount.
it happens.
 

alo

Well-known member
dole hole

I was on the dole for 3 months (just recently got a job thank christ) and was getting 59 quid but no rent paid. The dole - sorry, Job Seekers Allowance- doesn't actually cover rent, let alone bills and stuff. So it basically just prolongs eventual bankruptcy as far as i can see, not exactly condusive to uninhibited creativity.
 

vimothy

yurp
I was on the dole for 3 months (just recently got a job thank christ) and was getting 59 quid but no rent paid. The dole - sorry, Job Seekers Allowance- doesn't actually cover rent, let alone bills and stuff. So it basically just prolongs eventual bankruptcy as far as i can see, not exactly condusive to uninhibited creativity.

You have to apply for housing and council tax benefit separately.
 

DigitalDjigit

Honky Tonk Woman
the worst thing is being force to do some crappy job that pays LESS than you would get on benefit, and they give you benefit to make it up to the same amount.
it happens.

Holy crap, that's exactly like Speenhamland as described in The Great Transformation by Karl Polanyi. They had that in the late 1700's. Polanyi blames it for completely demoralising the nation. It also gives incentive for employers to pay less since the state will make up the difference thus keeping wages down for everyone.
 

alo

Well-known member
PHP:
You have to apply for housing and council tax benefit separately.

Funny, no-one ever explained this down the job centre.
 

vimothy

yurp
PHP:
You have to apply for housing and council tax benefit separately.

Funny, no-one ever explained this down the job centre.

You get it from a different place though, not the DSS (or whatever) but direct from the council, so I don't think it has anything to do with the people at the job centre.
 
What does make me fucking cross is when people get their kids 'diagnosed' with a 'personality disorder' so they can dose them up with Xanax or lithium or Ritalin or whatever at the age of five, because they basically can't be arsed to bring them up properly and help them through some difficult phase of development.

Then this documentary should really make you hysterically cross. The normalization of the Ludovico Treatment:

The Drugging of Our Children

"In the absence of any objective medical tests to determine who has ADD or ADHD, doctors rely in part on standardized assessments and the ... impressions of teachers and guardians while the drugs they administer leave little room for other causes or aggravating factors, such as diet, or environment. Hence, diagnosing a child or adolescent with ADD or ADHD is often the outcome, although no organic basis for either disease has yet to be clinically proven. Psychiatrists may then prescribe psychotropic drugs for the children without first making it clear to parents that these medications can have severe side-effects including insomnia, loss of appetite, headaches, psychotic symptoms and even potentially fatal adverse reactions, such as cardiac arrhythmia. And yet, despite these dangers, many school systems actually work with government agencies to force parents to drug their children, threatening those who refuse with the prospect of having their children taken from the home unless they cooperate ..." [Note the Michael Moore ADHD cameo about 9 minutes into the doc: "That was me! All of those things were me! Heh heh heh. Seriously, if this had been the way things were when I was growing up ..."].
 

luka

Well-known member
i wonder if we might actually get to a point where you can't publish books like this any more?

it does seem incredible that it's still allowed.
 
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