the disappearance of the black band

N

nomadologist

Guest
It's gutting isn't it?
I grew up on Earth Wind & Fire, Parliament etc, and also UK sould like Linx and Loose Ends and so on.
I guess the thing is, people try and make "what sells" so... now that hip hop and electronic RnB are big, it's a self-stoking thingummy where there's no successful black bands for young people to look up to or aspire to imitate... so they just make beats in an MPC and sing or rap.

I would love to see young people playing in a tight funky band.

The other thing is, it's a LOT of hard work to get really good. For a group of people to learn to play really funkily and together takes a lot more effort than either indie garagey guitar stuff or electronic production.

I know this just from spending a day trying to play rhythm guitar in time with a backing track and stay in the pocket.


it's interesting to think about the sort of dichotomy that forms in contemporary music by black performers in this light--you're either a hip-hop artist/rapper or, if you have serious vocal skills or can play well, you sing r&b slow jams. there doesn't seem to be anything in-between.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
I seem to recall reading something (maybe in Tricia Rose's Black Noise?) about the death of publicly funded music programs led to a decline in working class and poor kids who could play instruments... Then you have kids who went to technical training schools experimenting with technology and making hip hop.

I read a horrible book about the BRC (and Living Colour does suck utterly)... It was mostly a bunch of griping by middle class black bohemian types about how their music didn't get major label support. Valid, but major labels are hardly democratic or fair, and the BRC rather successfully made a go on their own. So stop yer whining!

Anyway, this makes me think... rock now is middle class (or higher) music, has been for a while now, and indie almost always has been. Buzz-worthy indie bands form in liberal arts colleges, record on trust funds. In the black community, the middle class has never really driven "black" (here come the scare quotes!) culture for a variety of reasons -- simple numbers for one; to be middle class requires a certain amount of cultural assimilation for another; and the cultural nationalism/protectionism of the "keeping it real" (i.e. working/lower class) discourse.

it's interesting to think about the sort of dichotomy that forms in contemporary music by black performers in this light--you're either a hip-hop artist/rapper or, if you have serious vocal skills or can play well, you sing r&b slow jams. there doesn't seem to be anything in-between.

Or if you are a modern day black boho, you can do both (Mos Def). There is definitely a dichotomy, it may be a religious/secular one -- most R&B singers learn their trade in church; rapping can be done at school, on the bus, on the street, at low volumes if necessary. The dichotomy is down to what each delivery signifies too: no one really tries to communicate emotion through rap (except for those white indie emo-rappers who always seem 5 years behind), instead it's about being cool, stylish, effortless -- barely anyone even angry anymore... R&B is all hyperemotional melismatic overdrive, no subtlety whatsoever (including lyrical content!).
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
there are still black bands out there (of varying quality) but none of them are really in the mainstream. and i dont think R&B is really made for a 'band' sound' as it would conflict with the emphasis on synthetic textures in the genre, from both the instruments (synths synths and more synths) and drum programming, to the treatments you get on the voice. although saying that, beyonce and co do have live bands on stage, though her last band was boring glitzy session types (would be better if she had a human league type set up IMO) and her new all-female one seems to be out to make a statement, but they sound a bit thin and dont really add that much to the material, as well, there isnt much 'musical meat' there in the songs to begin with. you also do get bands with neo soul artists like bilal or jill scott etc, but no, theyre not real self contained bands. as far as new black bands, fertile ground and the roots are both good. i agree forming a funk or soul band is a bit diff to an indie one cos of standards and also cos there are no visible models out there in pop culture for kids to aspire to which doesnt help but hey, if ESG can do it...! ;)

the most usual reason given for why black bands fell out of favour is that funding in inner city schools went into decline so kids werent learning instruments anymore but its also just cos of what was hot and coming into favour at the time - there was an interview with jam master jay when he said his dad or uncle bought him a guitar but he just wasnt interested - he wanted turntables. (esg were from the bronx too like all the early rappers/djs but they obviously had different ideas so they stuck with the band model).
 
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Gavin

booty bass intellectual
In an interesting wrinkle, even the most synthetic hip hop uses session musicians -- Lil Jon has a trio of black musicians beefing up his bass and drum sounds. Justin Timberlake's live show (endlessly broadcast on HBO) had at least a dozen black session musicians backing him up. There are many black instrumentalists but few bands marketed as such. You probably get paid better as JT's jolly bass player though.

Just had a thought: could digital recording be behind this partially? -- recordings no longer require any kind of coherent live group performance whatsoever, producers enabled by superior technology subject bands to division of labor...

Also, think of the live audiences (one of the main points of having a band, right?) -- in the mercenary hunt for sexual partners that is the hegemonic form of the club scene, who gives a shit about the music, let alone the talent of anyone performing? Maybe I've just been to shitty clubs -- probably.
 

Poisonous Dart

Lone Swordsman
To answer your question....

HOWEVER, might this not simply be because -- and it's so damn obvious -- indie rock is based around guitar, drums, bass, maybe keyboard and synths, and therefore its practitioners find it difficult to borrow from hip hop

so aren't the real questions these =

(1) WHY did black bands disappear? WHY the victory of hip hop over black funk and rock bands?

(2) Now that hip hop has gotten so stale, WHY haven't we seen a return of black bands into public consciousness?[/QUOTE]


Huh? What?

First off...Rock IS Black music. There isn't a great seminal artist in Rock that everyone doesn't worship that essentially didn't learn that music or was inspired by some Black dude/s with a guitar. The Who, Rolling Stones, Clapton, The Beatles, and whomever so that point is moot about "Black influence" on rock/indie rock since if it wasn't for some Black person they'd never have picked up a guitar or drums or synth in the first place (even if they don't acknowledge or realize it).

The question of why aren't there any Black bands is sadly pretty simple...After the first wave of Hip Hoppers (1979-1984), music played by Black bands became "your parents music" and Hip Hop became the "music of the young people". By that time even P Funk had become music for older folks and the divide was set:

Old folks music: Album cover with dudes holding guitars

Young people's music: Album cover with a bunch a dudes sans instruments of any kind or just with microphones and turntables.

It also helped that the same execs and producers that made music for "Black bands" completely thumbed their noses at Hip Hop and completely helped along the divide. The Black executves wanted NOTHING to do with Hip Hop culture or Rap music in the early years...they regarded it as "noise" and "street music" (which is what R&B was...Doo Wop mixed with gospel music that was sung on the street or corners. That sure sounds familiar!)

In music, generations happen every 3-5 years. If the average fan becomes aware/interested in music between the ages of 9-13 then that means that if you grew up with Run DMC between these years then you're less likely to be checking for music by a band when you turn 14. I was aware of music since I was 3 (1978) and I loved everything. I was also aware that by 1985, kids my age were either into Hip Hop/Rap, Prince or Michael Jackson and then traditional R&B but Rap was WAY AHEAD in their preferences.

After Hip Hop finally hit hard in 1988, it damn near closed the door on breaking a Black band (especially a Rock one), only Living Colour and Romeo Blue (Lenny Kravitz' old band name) made anay headway before Body Count and Proper Grounds got signed. Aside from Fishbone and Bad Brains? No dice.

Then came the Hip Hop band in the early 90's thanks to Stetsasonic and The Roots, Dujeous, The All That Band, Survival Sounds, etc. all sprung up.

I could write more on this but I have a project to finish. *Plays "Judgement Night" OST on iTunes*

One.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
good points from gavin and PD, but i always think of the prevalence of indie among white kids from my generation versus the prevalence of hip-hop/r&b among black kids this way:

white kids my age are very likely to be the children of baby boomers who (many many of them) tended to be hippies who liked bob dylan and were into the whole rock authenticity idea

minority children my age often have parents from the generation that's 5-10 years younger than the baby boomers, and grew up with funk and soul rather than folk/psychedelic folk
 
I have no constructive comment to add on the ongoing discussion but Sa-Ra are a fucking fantastic black band. "Dark Matter & Pornography" gets played far too much. Very electronic, though, in case that dissuades.
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
it's interesting to think about the sort of dichotomy that forms in contemporary music by black performers in this light--you're either a hip-hop artist/rapper or, if you have serious vocal skills or can play well, you sing r&b slow jams. there doesn't seem to be anything in-between.

hey, theres always akon, wyclef and will i am...
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
don't you think akon fits in with the balladeers? i would put him in there i think
 

swears

preppy-kei
"WHY did black bands disappear? WHY the victory of hip hop over black funk and rock bands"

They heard The Style Council and thought "fuck this".
 

Gabba Flamenco Crossover

High Sierra Skullfuck
seriously, though, if you think about it, a lot of early proto-hip-hop and funk acts were much more like "crews" in the sense borderpolice mentions than they were like "bands"...think about parliament funkadelic, sun ra, sly and the family stone, etc. these were not static "band-like" entities in the same way rock had them...

Yeah I agree. Black bands have tended to be functional entities. That ideological thing of 'the band' as an outlaw gang on the edges of the system, the Stones-MC5-Ramones-Clash tradition, is nowhere near as apparent in black band history. I guess you could argue that Sly Stone and Parliament had it a bit, but it was a pretty wry take on it. The wacko space-alien side of Parliament is almost a subconsious send-up on the white meme of the 'outlaw band'.

It's not surprising when you think that the ultimate root of the 'outlaw band' meme probably lie with the beats and the early 60s folk revival, which had a very confused relationship with black culture.

Producers like Norman Whitfield would run recording sessions in a very specific way so they could, in effect, use thier session musicians like a giant sampler (he would let the band jam and solo instruments, barking out instructions for the musicians to stop and start playing , loop sections, copy riffs and so on, til he had the groove he was looking for). So it's no surprise that once actual samplers became available, the number of black bands dropped.
 

Poisonous Dart

Lone Swordsman
Uh....one problem.

so we can say this as well:

First off...HipHop IS White music. There isn't a great seminal artist in HipHop that everyone doesn't worship that essentially didn't learn that music or was inspired by some White dude/s with a synth. Bambaata, Run DMC, Timbaland, and whomever so that point is moot about "White influence" on hiphop since if it wasn't for some White person they'd never have picked up a synth in the first place (even if they don't acknowledge or realize it).
(for instance im thinking of Kraftwerk, the Art of Noise, stuff like that)

Uh...not really. Hip Hop is created from the influence of ALL MUSICAL FORMS. That's why we say Hip Hop is universal. Therefore having Kraftwerk, and early classic rock as well as snyth music play an important part in it...it wasn't STARTED by White people. They were a part of the movement in the early days but they weren't the founders and they weren't the key innovators the same way Robert Johnson and the old Blues legends were or Chuck Berry or B.B. King or Ike Turner were for Rock N' Roll music.

Influence is all well and good. I was talking about laying down all of the foundation for Rock music period. Hip Hip was going to exist ANYWAY. Rock N' Roll NEVER would've existed hadn't these Black men hadn't ever picked up guitars 100 years ago.

This means your cute little circular reasoning exercise above falls WAY short of being true.

One.
 

borderpolice

Well-known member
Given the resurgence of the live band and the importance of concerts (a consequence of the structural changes in the music business), might we not see the reappearance of black bands?
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
You claim that for instance the beatles were making black music. They started as a skiffle band, how much more white can you get. Most of their music i know strikes me as utterly white (and dull)
I think the Beatles get their rock from Little Richard and Chuck Berry really, so rock does come from blues / gospel / r&b there's no denying that. But yes it's come so far from those roots as to become naturalised, so calling rock 'black music' makes little sense. It's at least 3rd generation by now.
 

Eric

Mr Moraigero
I just had the feeling that by the time I wake up tomorrow morning there will be 45 posts battling about whether rap/hiphop/rock/blues/classical/rai/bhangra are or are not black music. I wanted to nip it in the bud. Useless of course :) But maybe this was never going to happen anyway.
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
Producers like Norman Whitfield would run recording sessions in a very specific way so they could, in effect, use thier session musicians like a giant sampler (he would let the band jam and solo instruments, barking out instructions for the musicians to stop and start playing , loop sections, copy riffs and so on, til he had the groove he was looking for). So it's no surprise that once actual samplers became available, the number of black bands dropped.

soul has always been majorly producer-driven (often producers who find their muse in a particular artist though so the relationship isnt totally one way) from motown to philly international etc but athere were always individualistic artists like stevie wonder, marvin gaye, michael jackson, etc who werent merely at the mercy of back room boys too.

I think the Beatles get their rock from Little Richard and Chuck Berry really, so rock does come from blues / gospel / r&b there's no denying that. But yes it's come so far from those roots as to become naturalised, so calling rock 'black music' makes little sense. It's at least 3rd generation by now.

true enough. even the bands ripping off post punk at the moment, they sound totally 3rd and 4th hand with those 70s black influences too.
 
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