S M O K I N G

[dominic]

capitalism does NOT want you to be healthy, autonomous, and self reliant.

capitalism wants each everyone of us addicted, dependent, both pyschologicaly weak and physically unfit.

capitalism ain't the devil . . . .

and if humans weren't sick fucked-up creatures with tangled desires, for status, knowledge, love, amusement, they'd be of no literary interest whatsoever

they'd simply be autonomous beings in possession of themselves -- how boring

 

[dominic]

But: Desire is manipulable, and you can certainly choose not to expose yourself to things which might induce a desire... whilst there is no "pure" desire which can be satisfied unlike all those impure desires implanted into our minds by hegemonic forces... It is probably possible to limit the range of desires.

what about sexual desire? suppose you don't want to be dependent on by the kink that turns you "on." if you eliminate the kinky fantasy, somehow re-route your thoughts so that you don't focus on the "it" that does it for you -- might you not also eliminate sexual desire in total?

in which case, is it better to have warped sexual desire or no sexual desire?

why should it be desirable to be free of desire? unless you wish to be post-human . . . .

but why should you wish to be post-human?

isn't this really some kind of christian contempt for the body that you're espousing here?

 

[gek-opel]

what about sexual desire? suppose you don't want to be dependent on by the kink that turns you "on." if you eliminate the kinky fantasy, somehow re-route your thoughts so that you don't focus on the "it" that does it for you -- might you not also eliminate sexual desire in total?

in which case, is it better to have warped sexual desire or no sexual desire?

why should it be desirable to be free of desire? unless you wish to be post-human . . . .

but why should you wish to be post-human?

isn't this really some kind of christian contempt for the body that you're espousing here?

I was thinking more of consumerism/drugs- if you don't expose yourself you can limit the inculcation of new desires. To limit the unending EXPANSION of range/depth of desires is not a Christian contempt for the physical body, but merely an oppositional strategy to the unceasing efforts working upon the individual to do so.

 

[zhao]

if humans weren't sick fucked-up creatures with tangled desires, for status, knowledge, love, amusement, they'd be of no literary interest whatsoever

they'd simply be autonomous beings in possession of themselves -- how boring

your claim is entirely groundless and ludicrous.

some of (maybe all) the most breath-taking, amazing, and interesting works of art are made by autonomous beings in possession of themselves.

if you meet and talk to, or read the writings, biographies or autobiogrphies of some of the most creative contemporary people you soon realize how entirely juvenile, at best first year art-college, your romantic notions regarding "sickness" and "fucked-up-ness" is.

EDIT: i have in mind people like Gerhard Richter, Tim Hawkinson, etc.

also sure there are creative people who make worthwhile work who are fucked-up and miserable (or pretend to be, like Trent Reznor), like the Spectral composer who commited suicide. but this in no way means that relatively "healthy" people are boring. that is just absurd.

 

[zhao]

autonomous beings in possession of themselves

plus the whole point of schizo-analysis, foucault, derrida, post-structuralism, D&G, and fighting fascism, fighting capitalism, is to become this. at least how i see it.

certainly i will get massive convoluted replies vaguely but exhaustively negating the above statement. plus straight up dismissal of my views on account of not having read the source texts (i have, by the way, but admittedly little compared to others). and I am willing to listen and learn what i can from you more well read people. but the bottom line is that i firmly believe that the fundamental aim of the work of all of these analysts and theorists is to scrutinize the ways with which we are subject to repressive codes, and in so doing, allowing, perhaps, a glimpse of ways to become free of them.

 

[mistersloane]

if you meet and talk to, or read the writings, biographies or autobiogrphies of some of the most creative contemporary people you soon realize how entirely juvenile, at best first year art-college, your romantic notions regarding "sickness" and "fucked-up-ness" is.

EDIT: i have in mind people like Gerhard Richter, Tim Hawkinson, etc.

yeah that's really interesting that one, I used to have a book of interviews with Richter and GOD was he boring, which kindof impressed me because to be simultaneously the most brilliant artist on earth and the most boring human being has to be some form of higher achievement.

 

[zhao]

yeah that's really interesting that one, I used to have a book of interviews with Richter and GOD was he boring, which kindof impressed me because to be simultaneously the most brilliant artist on earth and the most boring human being has to be some form of higher achievement.

at which point i have to wonder how valid or important is yours or mine or dominic's notion of what is considered "boring".

do you think Richter gives a flying fuck what we think is boring or not boring while he does exactly what he pleases, does it better than anyone else, does it in ways that have not been done before, and gets a shit load of recognition and money for it?

 

[zhao]

the answer is no.

i would rather be Richter than an "interesting" and fucked up bloke on a message board.

and i cant say because Ive never met Richter before. in person he might be a little different from when he's answering questions for Art Forum. you think maybe?

however i have met Tim Hawkinson before and he is very witty and funny and fun to be around. more so than some self pitying neurotic self obsessed loser full of negative energy tell you that much.

 

[swears]

What is this "negative energy"?

Sounds like you're being mean to people with problems.

 

[zhao]

not being intentionally "mean". just sick and tired of the lame teenage romanticisation of sickness and "fucked-up-ness". it's shocking that seemingly intelligent and mature people still subscribe to it.

we all listened to the Cure and thought it was cool to be sick and fucked-up growing up. but some of us -- wait there is a clever pun here somewhere... aww fuck it -- got over it and realized that life is MORE interesting if you are not depressed or whatever.

plus, dominic, have you ever had or met people with serious problems? who are clinically depressed? fuck. talk about BORING!

the miserable artist/genius is like rain-man among autistic people - very rare. most depressed people are a fucking drag to be around.

the middle-class tabloid myth of the "miserable artist" is SO fucking stupid. grow up.

 

[Gavin]

The poll is quite funny... Can you get away with smoking in classrooms anywhere? I had a math prof who complained that he couldn't smoke in class anymore. It was a 50 minute calculus lecture; afterwards he'd rush outside and immediately light up two cigarillos at once.

 

[Guybrush]

the miserable artist/genius is like rain-man among autistic people - very rare. most depressed people are a fucking drag to be around.

Zhao has been OTM for most of this thread, and above — depressingly so.

The don’t-be-so-inconsiderate/don’t-be-so-ignorant/don’t pick-on-those-who-suffer cards always work a treat whenever this affliction is questioned ever so slightly, so I’m not surprised some people here were quick to play them. They conceal, however, that many of the people who suffer from depression, imagined or otherwise, are but self-absorbed moaners, far too eager to place the blame for their condition anywhere but with themselves. In my experience, most of these moaniacs would benefit greatly from a gentle reality check. It’s not the system — it’s you, stupid. That is not to say that some people are not just simply FUBAR, but I maintain that these are precious and few.

 

[swears]

plus, dominic, have you ever had or met people with serious problems? who are clinically depressed? fuck. talk about BORING!

Yeah, not as bad as hippies who go on about "negative energy" though.

Heavy vibes, man!

 

[Guybrush]

Yeah, not as bad as hippies who go on about "negative energy" though.

Heavy vibes, man!

Here we go again ... However much I dislike Zhao’s way of phrasing his displeasure, you know, and I know, that his beef is very different to some hippie-ish ‘bad vibes’ rant. It has to do with the way some people gratuitously flaunt their supposed depression, to the detriment of their kith and kin. It’s ubiquitous and it’s a drag.

 

[gek-opel]

Here we go again ... However much I dislike Zhao’s way of phrasing his displeasure, you know, and I know, that his beef is very different to some hippie-ish ‘bad vibes’ rant. It has to do with the way some people gratuitously flaunt their supposed depression, to the detriment of their kith and kin. It’s ubiquitous and it’s a drag.

Obviously romantic notions of inspiration through mental illness are pernicous bullshit. However Zhao is repping some seriously simple-minded ideas here... his being precisely as romantic....

 

[Guybrush]

Precisely. Well consumerism anyway has internalised, metastasized... not just addiction, but the root process of metabolic reactivity, that solipsistic observation of incremental internalised affect...

That's why we must learn primarily to give up on the idea of "health" (definitely needs the quotation marks!)

Surely this health (‘health’ ... phooey!) discussion is some kind of arsy-versy in-joke. Nothing is healthy, so everything previously thought of as unhealthy is — here’s the kicker — equally as healthy! It’s a wash! I wonder who the joke is on ...

 

[Guybrush]

Sorry if I come across as a little harsh, but the combination of an already present depression and rash ideas about the redundancy of any concept of health seems a particularly nasty one. Common sense folks!

 

[gek-opel]

Surely this health (‘health’ ... phooey!) discussion is some kind of arsy-versy in-joke. Nothing is healthy, so everything previously thought of as unhealthy is — here’s the kicker — equally as healthy! It’s a wash! I wonder who the joke is on ...

Im not saying give up on health, just "health" the rarified category of body-obsessive desire... and any idea of "return to nature" (on an individualistic basis at least) is simply laughable (and an idea which animated a variety of fascistic thought).

 

[gek-opel]

Common sense folks!

Fuck right off! Um yeah but more seriously, if we are going to resort to "common sense" then ought we to have a discussion at all? We can just accept a perfectly unproblematic idea of health and nature and proceed without any doubt towards total and utter irrelevency...

 

[Mr. Tea]

Zhao, how the hell can you accuse me of bringing "bad energy" into a discussion, and then call dominic's contribution to this thread "groundless", "ludicrous" and "entirely juvenile", rather than simply saying "I disagree"? :slanted: