Carl Craigs recent music

[hurricane run]

"Basic Channel was like a concerted, slightly self conscious effort to move the sound in a certain direction by a big producer, like what Mills/Hood were doing. Mauritzio had made and engineered loads of techno records prior to doing BC. It took a while for the BC influence to percolate into techno - initially it was more deep house people who were creaming over thier tracks - but from 96 on you got loads of weak BC ripoffs coming through. Again, software synths and computer recording opened the floodgates (it's difficult to get the BC sound using just hardware). It kind of meshed with the glitch-house thing - lots of men in thick glasses making dance music you can't really dance to. Funny cos BC at thier best are very warm and organic, and the original BC tracks absolutely rock on a big system - Mauritzio is a legendary engineer, whatever you think of his production aesthetic."
Carl Craig had some link up in the early days of BC. At the time I was told the Q1.1 record was the slight yank, and he remixed domina (killer record). Oh and i forgot the Quadrant record (i think on planet E(?) but very much on the BC tip)

 

[hurricane run]

Meant to say, 1994 was the year Chicago came back too. Beat that bitch with a bat etc.
1993(?) Altered states reissued on Djax up beats. Bigggg..

 

[michael]

Carl Craig had some link up in the early days of BC. At the time I was told the Q1.1 record was the slight yank, and he remixed domina (killer record). Oh and i forgot the Quadrant record (i think on planet E(?) but very much on the BC tip)

Getting tenuous, but they both did rejigs of Manuel Gottsching's E2-E4... and Von Oswald and his old bandmate Thomas Fehlmann collabed with other Detroit techno producers like Eddie Flashing Fowlkes and Juan Atkins.

 

[hamarplazt]

In contrast to the fretful minor-key melodies of Detroit techno, or the clanging anti-melodies found in a lot of Uk and Belgian tracks, this German techno had cosmic, anthemic melodies influenced by Tangerine Dream and 80s euro-disco. By 1993 this was being called 'trance-techno' and by 95 it had split off into trance, a completely seperate genre, helped by the goa/hippy scene that had no use for hard, dystopian techno.

Sorry, but this is just completely wrong. Have you ever heard goa trance? Most of it is really dark, brooding and dystopic, like a lot of the early trance in general. It has to do with the fact that trance basically developed as a combination of ebm and acid (as with new beat). Which brings me to a crucuial scene that is abscent from your history lesseon. While there were coming arty/minimal stuff from (mostly) Detroit and hard rave tracks from Belgium/Holland (not to mention bleep from England), Germany had its own very thriving techno scene that was related to the lowlands style - again through new beat - , but with a very strong element of electro and ebm. Ebm was actually a german proto-techno scene throughout most of the eighties, and when techno exploded in continental europe, it was partly build on that allready existing subculture. Which is why you can hear ebm so clearly in a lot of euro-styles - trance, gabber, acid-hardcore.

It's also worth noticing that the so-called "back to the 303"-sound was far from a retro thing. A lot of it was pushing acid into directions that was never thought of in the first place, and especially in germany it was a huge, huge movement connecting many different strands of what was considered "techno" there, from hardcore to trance to ambient to minimal and experimantal stuff. Some key names could be Hardfloor (obviously), Air Liquide, Thomas P Heckmann (Drax) and the whole Force Inc axis - Mike Ink, Biochip C etc.

 

[noel emits]

And therein lies the problem of trying to draw a structuralist historical interpretation of a rhizomatic network of production innart.

 

[Gabba Flamenco Crossover]

Sorry, but this is just completely wrong. Have you ever heard goa trance? Most of it is really dark, brooding and dystopic, like a lot of the early trance in general. It has to do with the fact that trance basically developed as a combination of ebm and acid (as with new beat). Which brings me to a crucuial scene that is abscent from your history lesseon. While there were coming arty/minimal stuff from (mostly) Detroit and hard rave tracks from Belgium/Holland (not to mention bleep from England), Germany had its own very thriving techno scene that was related to the lowlands style - again through new beat - , but with a very strong element of electro and ebm. Ebm was actually a german proto-techno scene throughout most of the eighties, and when techno exploded in continental europe, it was partly build on that allready existing subculture. Which is why you can hear ebm so clearly in a lot of euro-styles - trance, gabber, acid-hardcore.

Fair comment, I've never been that into trance. Thinking about what I have heard, you're probably right. There is that strain of really robotic psy-trance isnt there? I suppose 'dystopic' is a term that's open to quite a wide interpretation. I think 'cosmic' might be the key term in describing trance - trance aspires to be cosmic in a way that most techno doesn't.

EBM was a very niche scene in the UK and it didn't have much of an influence on the rave scene here, but you're spot on about it's influence on euro techno, definitely.

 

[Pestario]

I know the mindless two-beat loop stuff is sort of being slated here but what are the big name djs who pushed this stuff? I got Jeff Mills and Robert Hood down but who else was there? I'm looking to download some sets.

 

[noel emits]

We've been over this before no this forum but I agree with GFC's original post in as far as Trance can't be said to have simply descended from EBM and Acid. The techno-trance sound, Harthouse and so on, had lots of Berlin School 'cosmic' synth music in it. And it was most often described as techno-trance, there wasn't so much of a distinction there until around '95.

 

[hamarplazt]

Fair comment, I've never been that into trance. Thinking about what I have heard, you're probably right. There is that strain of really robotic psy-trance isnt there? I suppose 'dystopic' is a term that's open to quite a wide interpretation. I think 'cosmic' might be the key term in describing trance - trance aspires to be cosmic in a way that most techno doesn't.

Yes, certainly. "Cosmic" doesn't have to be warm and happy at all, at its best it's this ice cold, dark, vast sound. I think someone like Drax was really an expert in this field. On the other hand, I think there's very much a cosmic element in a lot of detroit techno as well.

We've been over this before no this forum but I agree with GFC's original post in as far as Trance can't be said to have simply descended from EBM and Acid. The techno-trance sound, Harthouse and so on, had lots of Berlin School 'cosmic' synth music in it.

Yes it had, but you could say the same about other strands of techno too. It was a common inspiration with the more chilled and arty producers I think, not a direct ancestor as such.

I knew a lot of trance heads back then, and none of them had heard about TD, Schulze etc. And the berlin school fundamentalists I knew didn't care much for trance, even if it was the kind of techno they had the least trouble with.

 

[viktorvaughn]

Man himself at Plastic People.
http://www.littledetroit.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24047&sid=67bd5513161180ea4f42d2441d81d920

Surgeon this Saturday too at PP.

 

[Edward]

This is hilariously contentious, confusing and wrong:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_beat

 

[noel emits]

Yes it had, but you could say the same about other strands of techno too. It was a common inspiration with the more chilled and arty producers I think, not a direct ancestor as such.

Silly to argue about but I do disagree I'm talking about early to mid 90s techno-trance, it's basically KS & TD synth music with added 303 and 909. I don't think you could say that about most other strains of techno - those big pads, arps and spacey themes. But there was a lot going on and terms and reference points vary.

I knew a lot of trance heads back then, and none of them had heard about TD, Schulze etc.

I always hated it when you would encounter techno fans who had no sense of any earlier music but I'd be surprised if most producers hadn't encountered those artists? Possible I suppose.

 

[Gabba Flamenco Crossover]

On the other hand, I think there's very much a cosmic element in a lot of detroit techno as well.

Spiritual, yes, definitely. Not really cosmic though. Cosmic implies something that's on an inhuman scale, what makes detroit techno stand out is the humanity of it (what all that journo guff about 'machine soul' was driving at, probably). I suppose Mills can get quite cosmic in his duller moments.

Totally agree with you that the cosmic vibe can be a dark, brooding one. 'The Brooding Cosmos' could be the name of an Arthur C Clarke story

 

[hamarplazt]

Silly to argue about but I do disagree I'm talking about early to mid 90s techno-trance, it's basically KS & TD synth music with added 303 and 909.

I've heard this claim before, and I just don't see it at all. Sure, there's some elements here and there, the use of sequencers sometimes, or the thick pads elsewhere, but that doesn't just make it TD with beats. Could you give some examples?

 

[hamarplazt]

Spiritual, yes, definitely. Not really cosmic though. Cosmic implies something that's on an inhuman scale, what makes detroit techno stand out is the humanity of it (what all that journo guff about 'machine soul' was driving at, probably).

Indeed, this "humanity" is why I often think detroit techno is dull and regressive. But what about UR and their outer space journeys, they weren't all just jazz fluff - Acid Rain III or Rings of Saturn, not much humanity on those records. And Manuel Goettsching is a well known influence, the germans generally got more "subtle" and, er, "human" I guess, in the eighties, and some of their records from that time have much of a detroit art techno feel. Also, Carl Craigs "Landcruising" is totally cosmic, almost a TD homage in parts.

 

[Gabba Flamenco Crossover]

Indeed, this "humanity" is why I often think detroit techno is dull and regressive. But what about UR and their outer space journeys, they weren't all just jazz fluff - Acid Rain III or Rings of Saturn, not much humanity on those records. And Manuel Goettsching is a well known influence, the germans generally got more "subtle" and, er, "human" I guess, in the eighties, and some of their records from that time have much of a detroit art techno feel. Also, Carl Craigs "Landcruising" is totally cosmic, almost a TD homage in parts.

Yeah, I was thinking about UR. Also Kenny Larkin's 'War Of The Worlds' is a good example of cosmic Detroit techno. But I think they're exceptions to the rule.

Part of the humanity of Detroit techno is that it's being made on pretty amateurish equipment, so there's that connnection to individual endeavour - the production values are light years behind the early german trance records, where the producers usually had access to proper studios. This is a hangover from the EBM scene I guess. Sheffield was one of the few places in the UK where electronic musicians had cheap access to proper studio/mastering facilities (thanks to FON and Caberet Voltaire's studio, set up in the 70s/80s) - you can really hear that in the production values of the early warp stuff, the mastering etc is spot on.

 

[noel emits]

I've heard this claim before, and I just don't see it at all. Sure, there's some elements here and there, the use of sequencers sometimes, or the thick pads elsewhere, but that doesn't just make it TD with beats. Could you give some examples?

Well right now my reference point for saying that is that I listened to this Harthouse Retrospective all the way through recently as a refresher and a great deal of it struck me as basically being German space music with a techno beat. Of course I realise that in part that's going to be a sound you are likely to get when using analogue synths and step sequencers in a certain way.

Also think of Cosmic Baby as someone doing early Trance with a quite explicit 70s space music vibe. Dr. Motte too.

But perhaps the most direct links can be made for people like Pete Namlook (of course), Oliver Lieb, Air Liquide, Sven Vath... so I guess it could be more Frankfurt School than Berlin

I'm not saying that this music is just 'TD with 909s' but there is at least as much of that in there as there is EBM or acid.

 

[Client Eastwood]

We've been over this before no this forum but I agree with GFC's original post in as far as Trance can't be said to have simply descended from EBM and Acid. The techno-trance sound, Harthouse and so on, had lots of Berlin School 'cosmic' synth music in it. And it was most often described as techno-trance, there wasn't so much of a distinction there until around '95.

never been into trance but productions by red planet aka the martian from detroit must of influenced trance sound before it caught on in europe. stardancer is a fine example and its from 93.

 

[noel emits]

No doubt. All these things feed into each other and feed back. And there weren't such big generic divides between house / techno / trance etc. at that time.

Depends what you mean by 'caught on' but the trance sound was big in Europe way before '93, although not as big as it would get of course.

Anyway, enough about trance already! This is the thread for Sir Carl of Craig.

 

[hamarplazt]

Anyway, enough about trance already!

No way, this is much more interesting than talking about Craig.

Well right now my reference point for saying that is that I listened to this Harthouse Retrospective all the way through recently as a refresher and a great deal of it struck me as basically being German space music with a techno beat. Of course I realise that in part that's going to be a sound you are likely to get when using analogue synths and step sequencers in a certain way.
...
I'm not saying that this music is just 'TD with 909s' but there is at least as much of that in there as there is EBM or acid.

I know all this stuff you talk about, I bought it when it was originally released and still own it, and I was a big Schulze/TD-fan prior to that, and STILL it doesn't sound like there's all that much berlin school in it to me. The similarities are just on the surface. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while some cosmic elements was added to the trance sound, it's origin, it's basic genetic material, was ebm and acid. It was not berlin school die hards who invented trance, it was ebm veterans like Talla 2xlc, Väth, Atom Heart, Overlords, Goa Gil, Koxbox etc.).

But perhaps the most direct links can be made for people like Pete Namlook (of course), Oliver Lieb, Air Liquide, Sven Vath... so I guess it could be more Frankfurt School than Berlin

Pete Namlook: Probably the one most influenced by TD/Schulze. But he mostly made ambient.
Oliver Lieb: While he was very cosmic in a conceptual way, with all his space effects and sci fi titles, his beats are really mad and hyperactive with none of the majestic drift of the cosmic tradition. He's a really odd one, the Hyper-on Experience of trance.
Air Liquide: Not really trance, but very much cosmic, yes. Much acid too. Practically no ebm. Were from Cologne, btw.
Sven Väth: More of a symphonic prog/Vangelis-influence than berlin school I think. I haven't heard the barbarella album, but his later stuff didn't sound much like either TD/KS or ebm. His sound is actually quite original, even if it's not very good.

Cosmic Baby is an interesing one too. Like Lieb there's all these space concepts in his stuff, and these big pads, but really, as with most of the Harthouse stuff, try and compare the basic structure of the music, the beats and sequencers, with TD or Schulze. Trance is pumping, stomping, precission locked in very much the same way as ebm or even Hi-NRG disco. With the berlin school it more like a combination of psychedelic rock and minimal classical music, endlessly shifting solos circling softly bubbling sequencers, the tracks slowly drifting and subtly changing over a long, long time.